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Rear anti-wrap solutions

bronconut73

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
9,916
I believe I concur with the statement above.

My Wrap Trap has served me well But I am pretty much a lightweight compared to you.
 

sykanr0ng

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 11, 2014
Messages
5,363
The Wrap trap is really made for street driving and off roading, you are going for a drag racing, or sand racing, I'd do ladder bars.

I believe I concur with the statement above.

My Wrap Trap has served me well But I am pretty much a lightweight compared to you.

I would agree, look at many drag racers and you will find ladder bars.
You don't need huge suspension travel or flex to drive a straight line on flat ground.
 
OP
OP
DJs74

DJs74

Bronco Guru
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
1,135
To All,

Thanks for the suggestions, photos of setups, links and experiences - I appreciate it.


DJs74
 

navalbronco66

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
270
What's the difference between the dudf tuff torque tamer, Wild Horses Wrap trap, and kit offered by ruff stuff? The ruff stuff kit seems the most beefy of the 3. Though it seems duffs is the easiest to install.
 

bronconut73

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
9,916
What's the difference between the dudf tuff torque tamer, Wild Horses Wrap trap, and kit offered by ruff stuff? The ruff stuff kit seems the most beefy of the 3. Though it seems duffs is the easiest to install.

Duff also has an HD version of their Torque Tamer. Its on my list.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,263
Loc.
Upper SoKA
Just to throw out something designed for pavement drag racing with leaf springs:
http://www.calvertracing.com/caltracs.html
Search "Cal TRACS" and you'll see all sorts of threads & comments about them.

I know nothing about how the classes are set-up, but does changing from leaf springs put you in a different class?

In drag racing, ladder bars are easy, but the better cars run a non-converging 4 link with a Watts or WOB link, or panhard-bar. Usually the frame end of the upper links have several bolt hole options to dial-in how much bite the car gets. Have a look at these as an example:
http://www.cachassisworks.com/everything_CDR.html#page32-row1
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
8,778
A single bushing anti-wrap "bar" has a job it can't handle well if it's used for what some put it through in real heavy duty use.

Over a decade before any Bronco suppliers started making anti-wrap bars I (like others) was using a single bar attached to the rear housing with a pivot/shackle setup up close to the t-case. I ate bushings on a regular basis... I even had custom higher durometer rated poly used in them...

Best if you can spread the load out over more bushings and it will last longer. The RuffStuf design does this, my version that I got from Lee N. two decades back does the same...spreads the load over more points so it will last longer.

Every design has advantages and drawbacks...
 

sykanr0ng

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 11, 2014
Messages
5,363
Just to throw out something designed for pavement drag racing with leaf springs:
http://www.calvertracing.com/caltracs.html
Search "Cal TRACS" and you'll see all sorts of threads & comments about them.

The CalTracs that I see are all for spring under the axle, spring over like a Bronco has would reverse direction of the leverage.

Not saying something couldn't be made, but the company doesn't look like they do, so you are probably on your own.
 

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nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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Messages
8,778
Duff's used to sell something somewhat similar (long time back) that mounted on top of the spring/axle. Worked good, limited travel some but worked great.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,263
Loc.
Upper SoKA
I wasn't suggesting the Cal TRACS as a bolt-on solution, just as an example of a traction aid used for a similar purpose as the OP's. No reason that the Cal TRACS spring plate couldn't be replaced with some tabs welded to the axle housing. None of the EB-specific traction aids are really designed specifically for the OP's use. Sure, they'll work but their application is different and they won't be optimized for this narrow use. I think it best to look at drag racing specific solutions and how they might best be used on an EB than to look at EB solutions and try to figure out which will work best in a drag racing application.
 

Whoaa

Bronco Guru
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
1,059
It seems like the root of axle wrap problems starts at the leaf springs, perch's, and U bolts. A little bit from several places add's up to a larger issue....

Of course this whole issue of axle wrap was never an issues with stock size tires, stock engines, and stock gears. Drop in a stout engine making big HP, low gears and big tires and now the pinion gear wants to climb the ring gear and twist the axle housing.

The stock leaf spring perch's are scrawny and don't provide much surface area for mounting of the leaf pack. The stock U bolts are too small for the new style leaf packs, plus when using a suspension lift now the pinion angle is bum feeding the driveshaft.

Several things needs addressed to fully correct these issues. Ruff stuff http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/R1991.html and other mfg's make some dandy leaf perch's that are larger than stock. Simply cut the old ones off and weld the new ones in place - at the correct "tip up" angle to fix the driveshaft alligment issue. Shims are another form of band aid, no need to use shims if you make the correction when welding on the new perch's.

I consulted with knowledgable folks at Tom Woods driveshafts http://www.4xshaft.com/ when doing mine. These guys are super helpful....like the same level of customer service you get from Duff's or WH.

WH makes some really nice U bolts and top plates http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Extreme_duty_U_bolt_kit http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/R1991.html , that actually fit correctly and allow you to snug-down the leaf pack to the perch.

1) Having large spring perch's -welded on at the correct angle, and 2) U bolts that you can really tighten to the proper tourque and keep tight is the answer.

^....These two steps alone will "fix" nearly all of the excessive axle wrap.

These first two steps *need* done before you start adding band-aids like anti-wrap bars.

I'm also using the WH wrap bar on mine http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Wrap_Trap. Seems pretty straightforward to install. Lay the mount acorss the frame and then mock-up the mount that welds to the rear housing with the Bronco sitting on its own weight. Then clamp/tack it in place, using a floor jack -compress and release the suspension through it full range to travel by jacking it up and letting it down while observing and looking for anything binding or not riding properly...weld the mounts in place solid.

EDIT: Pic 4 shows the final, if you look closely at pic 5-8 you'll see shims under the leaf pack. I had to do everything three or four times, I'm a slow learner. After several attempts to make it "right" I ended up using the large spring perch's and correcting the pinion angle at the same time, large U bolts. The wrap trap was icing on the cake to keep the diff housing from twisting in anstipation of a strong engine and big tires.









In this pic you can see the upper wrap mount layed accross the frame and the distance I'm holding the rear mount above the housing is about the amount of travel my rear housing goes up & down -showing the importance of mounting it when its sitting on its own weight.
The wrap-trap bar doesn't align with the bushing unless and until its sitting on it won weight!
Lining up the mount is simple w/o exhaust

Here's a shot of the rear wrap-trap mount welded to the axle housing before the spring perch's were done
 
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450rbronco

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
389
Could a wrap trap be made with hiems on both ends. Vs the bushing on the front and still work well? I would think but maybe I'm missing something


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Crawdad

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
3,635
Could a wrap trap be made with hiems on both ends. Vs the bushing on the front and still work well? I would think but maybe I'm missing something


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The poly or rubber bushing sorta cancels out any unwanted vibration and noises. Sorta like what body bushings do. I'm doing my best to copy WH's Wrap Trap on my build. I'll have a rodend on the axle and a poly bushing on top.
 

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toddz69

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Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Messages
10,126
The poly or rubber bushing sorta cancels out any unwanted vibration and noises. Sorta like what body bushings do. I'm doing my best to copy WH's Wrap Trap on my build. I'll have a rodend on the axle and a poly bushing on top.

And the bushing allows for slight changes in length of the overall bar which is key for it working correctly.

Todd Z.
 

nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
8,778
X2 what Todd said...the bushing has to be able to compress as you need to allow the housing to move forward and back during cycling of the suspension. I ate bushings about every 6 months or after 1 or 2 long wheeling trips... I gave up on track bar bushings too-averaged one/year.


I (and tons of others) are proof that you will STILL have axle wrap issues even if you install larger spring perches and larger ubolt setup... long travel softer springs, big tires, low gears...like really low gears adds up to leaf spring wrap. 4R70W/KluneV/Atlas 4.3.

At some point the longer spring perches can defeat the purpose of softer, long travel springs by reducing spring travel so you build an anti-wrap bar or 4 link the suspension to allow maximum suspension travel.

Course then you twist off 31 spline axles, Dana 20 gear sets, snap DOM tube that is used in the anti-wrap bars, etc...just keep building it tougher and tougher!

Good luck on your build.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,263
Loc.
Upper SoKA
The forces in a A type traction bar aren't really appreciated, they can get very large. I have seen pics of 1" G5 bolts used at the shackle sheared off under a K5.

I still contend that if a Wrap-Trap isn't enough that you really should be linking the rear. Everything else is a marginal compromise.

Next time you have the rear in air on stands with the suspension drooped-out qwikly fab something about 3 feet long or whatever length the proposed 'A' arm traction bar is to be that you can bolt to the pinion yoke. Take a measurement at the housing bottom and at the tip of the bolted-on part. Write those numbers down. Then jack up the housing 3", measure at the tip and write those numbers down too. Do this until you're lifting the truck off the stands.
Compare those sets of numbers. The tip of the "pointer" won't move exactly the same as the housing and the difference between each pair of measurements is how the pinion is normally rotating as the suspension cycles without any outside influence. That difference is where the force in the arm starts, to say nothing of the actual force from resisting housing rotation.
Next move the housing to the height that has the largest difference and grab the end of the pointer. Try to move it by hand to where it's measurement would be equal to the housing's measurement. This will be an eye-opener I'm sure (BT,DT!)
 

KyleQ

Bronco Guru
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
5,480
I've been using Ruff Stuff anti-wrap spring perches and plates in conjunction to their anti-wrap bar and its held up to a TON of rev-limiter clutch drops on 43" TSL's in single digit tire pressures. It had zero affect on articulation and the anti-squat I set it up at actually raises the back of the truck when I accelerate, planting the tires even harder on the ground.

I was measuring for shocks and placement, but you get the idea.
20140723_180927_zpshseerrgp.jpg
 

gotdads68

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
220
Hope this doesn't sway too far off subject, I was looking at the WH wrap trap but I'm at the rolling chassis stage right now (3 1/2" WH lift). Does anyone have a measurement that would get me close enough to mount the front crossmember since I cant base it off of full weight/ride height? Or at least the measurement of the distance between mounting point (bushing hole to heim joint hole)?
 
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