New lifters soak or no soak in oil

[Timmy390]

Reading and getting a lot of different opinions on this. What do you guys do?

I bought a set of Elgin lifters and they came with no instructions. Read on the Comp sight to clean and drop them in while on other sites it talked about soaking them in oil for a week?

How about cleaning? Do I need to soak them to clean any grease out of the inside of just a quick wash?

Tim

 

[Master Chief]

Tim, I have not used Elgin lifters but this from Comp Cams is what I follow. Roger



Clean the lifters thoroughly in mineral spirits or an equivalent solvent. It is not necessary to “pre-pump” hydraulic lifters full of engine oil prior to installation and valve adjustment. It is actually undesirable to do so as the “pumped up” lifters will cause the valves to open during the adjustment process, rather than positioning the lifter plunger in its operating position as it is supposed to do.

“Pre-soaking” hydraulic lifters in a bath of engine oil is a good idea, but not mandatory. Doing so ensures that the lifters are adequately lubricated on their outer surfaces prior to installation. It may also result in a quieter engine start up as the oil in the bath may displace some air from the lifter’s plunger reservoir.

Coat the bottoms of all flat tappet lifters with cam and lifter lube. When you install the lifters, make sure they fit well. Flat tappet lifters should rotate freely in the lifter bores. Any excess clearance or tight lifters can cause damage to the camshaft, leading to engine failure.

 

[pcf_mark]

I agree clean them externally with a solvent then blow them dry. I find soaking them or dipping them in oil makes applying the smear of cam lube more difficult it tends to slide off the lifter bottom. When dry I put a smear of cam lube on the bottom then use an oil can to squirt oil into the lifter bore and spread it around with my finger. Then I drop the lifter and spin it a little to be sure it is free.

You can pump them up submersed in a coffee can but it does not really help. You will probably crank the engine with the coil disconnected to build oil pressure anyway.

 

[blubuckaroo]

I was warned against priming the lifters in any way. I was told that it cold cause bent pushrods.
I just oil the bores and put a good dab of assembly lube on the cam lobes and lifter faces.
Also, be sure to prime the pump and use a high zinc break in oil other additive.

 

[Steve83]

What do you guys do?

I throw them in & drive, but I'm always rebuilding running engines - not building fresh.

...Elgin lifters and they came with no instructions.

Did you check the mfr. website? Do you have an engine assembly manual?

...soaking them in oil for a week?

That's pretty extreme.

You're not so much "soaking" them as you are attempting to prefill them with oil. And you can accomplish that MUCH faster than a week by just submerging them, and compressing/releasing them a few times.

But the oil pump can do that after the engine is assembled if you spin it before stabbing the distributor, and it'll prime everything else, too. So I'd apply assembly lube to the outsides of the lifters (and every other wearing surface), but I wouldn't waste a week looking at wet lifters.

How about cleaning?

Are they dirty? Did they arrive that way, or did you leave them out in the shop?

Do I need to soak them to clean any grease out of the inside...?

If there's grease in them, you shouldn't be using them.

...“pumped up” lifters will cause the valves to open during the adjustment process...

There would have to be a pretty-good seal between the lifter & bore to hold every drop of oil inside during the first few revs (which should be done with a breaker bar, anyway). But you're right that overfilled lifters (pumped up OUTside the engine) could damage the valvetrain during even the first rev.

“Pre-soaking” hydraulic lifters in a bath of engine oil...ensures that the lifters are adequately lubricated on their outer surfaces prior to installation.

No, it doesn't. Engine oil is too thin for that, and it doesn't "soak" into the steel no matter how long they're in contact. It just coats it, and it does that the moment they touch. But it will run off very quickly, which is why engine assembly lube should be used.

 

[Timmy390]

I throw them in & drive, but I'm always rebuilding running engines - not building fresh.Did you check the mfr. website? Do you have an engine assembly manual?That's pretty extreme.

The Elgin site didn't have anything I could find. Started with a running engine, rebuilt it, had head issues which I hope are resolved. Added a bigger cam this reassembly and a couple of the old lifters are tapping. Both on the D side. P side is nice and quiet. Used a stethoscope with probe to isolate the two offenders.

You're not so much "soaking" them as you are attempting to prefill them with oil. And you can accomplish that MUCH faster than a week by just submerging them, and compressing/releasing them a few times.

RIGHT....soaking them i.e. letting them fill with oil preinstall. I've read it takes anywhere from 24 hours to a week for them to fill when submerged.

Are they dirty? Did they arrive that way, or did you leave them out in the shop?If there's grease in them, you shouldn't be using them.

No, new in the box. The Comp website states to clean them but doesn't reference if you should do both inside and out. I was told there was a small amount of grease in each per the manufacturing process. Maybe that is just bad info I got.


OK, so I'm going with a cleaning (outside only), assembly lube on the roller and a dunk in oil. Lifter bore oiled before dropping them in.

I'll crank the engine with coil wire off to get some pressure built up before fire up.

Tim

 

[englewoodcowboy]

I have not ran that brand but lifters are lifters in that regard. I do not soak them on my builds, I simply clean them with solvent and blow dry them. I then squirt them with oil, lube the bore and cover the roller with assembly lube and drop them in. I like them empty for setting valve lash, much easier to feel compression and when they bottom out etc. Before I run I install the intake manifold and after the valves are adjusted, I prime the motor until I see oil running out of every pushrod. At that time I close it up and am ready to fire it up from there knowing everything has oil flowing to it.

 

[Steve83]

RIGHT....soaking them i.e. letting them fill...

Wrong. Not "letting them" passively, but actively driving the air out by compressing them, and then letting them draw oil in because they're submerged when you release them.

I'll crank the engine with coil wire off to get some pressure built up before fire up.

It's not the ignition that causes damage to an unlubricated engine; it's the speed & force of the starter spinning the dry crank, gears, bearings, & cam lobes creating so much friction heat that the metal softens. Either turn it BY HAND enough turns to push oil through the engine (which would take a lot), or spin the oil pump directly while the engine is stopped.

 

[pcf_mark]

As Steve83 pointed out always spin the oil pump with a drill before starting a brand new engine. Using the starter is a bad idea it can wipe the cam lobes clean of camshaft lube This assumes flat tappets. With roller lifters just drop them in wit oil on the bodies and rollers and forget about it. No special cam lube or prep is needed.

I'm still confused how pumping up the liters can cause valvetrain issues. When the engine is running every lifter is fully pumped up. Nothing hits (assuming the engine is assembled correctly) On an engine that has already run the lifters are all pumped up on every start up (unless it sits a long time).

 

[bronconut73]

When your adjusting your valve train you would like the pushrods to be in the middle (or a little less) of the lifters (hydraulic) internal stroke. You may not be able to do this if they are full of oil initially.

 

[bmc69]

As correctly noted in couple posts, do NOT try to prime or preload new lifters. Just dip in oil and install.

 

[Timmy390]

Positive stop rockers so no valve adjustment needed.

Engine has been ran for 20 minutes or more. Only the lifters are being changed at this point because 2 of them are making noise. Noise started immediately on startup and has not changed.

I did prime the engine after assembly with drill before startup. I only need the lifters to pump up but I guess they will do that on startup if I don't prime.

Verified everything was and is oiling correctly via valve cover with top cut out.

Maybe I'll get this done this weekend

Tim

 

[Steve83]

When the engine is running every lifter is fully pumped up.

No, that's not how they work. That's how solid "lifters" work; these are technically "hydraulic lash adjusters" (HLAs), and they have the ability to adjust as the engine wears. That means, when the engine is fresh, the HLAs are able to be too big (because they have to adjust larger over the years). So if they're "filled" with oil, and installed in the engine, and the engine is spun over fast (as by the starter) before the HLAs can leak down, they can bend the valvetrain or gall themselves against the cam lobes. That can only happen in the FIRST 2 revolutions of the crankshaft (first rev of the camshaft) because, during EACH cam rev, the HLAs all move through their bores to their "vent" positions where they can release (or take on) oil and adjust. That's why it's critical to make at least the first few revs by hand if any of the valvetrain has been replaced.

When your adjusting your valve train you would like the pushrods to be in the middle (or a little less) of the lifters (hydraulic) internal stroke.

When using HLAs, you shouldn't try to "adjust" the valvetrain. Run the rocker nuts all the way down to the specified torque. Only solid lifters need manual adjustment.

Engine has been ran for 20 minutes or more. Only the lifters are being changed at this point because 2 of them are making noise. Noise started immediately on startup and has not changed.

So what did you do before that first startup?

 

[Timmy390]

.So what did you do before that first startup?

It's a long story, Recap

96 351W running when I got it drove the van home it was in.
Rebuilt it going 20 over stock build. Reused the valve train so lifters were removed, outside cleaned and then reused.

Had a cracked E7 head that was missed when magnafluxed resulting in bubbles in my coolant. Changed head gaskets several times thinking that was it. Last head gasket change the crack worked it's way to the outside of the head and coolant was running down the side of the head.

Used set of GT40P's rebuilt, decked, new springs, valve job etc.
Had the block checked again for flatness.
Added a bigger cam. Comp 35-349-8/XE264HR Comp said stock pushrods and rockers work.

Reassembled, primed, and it fired up. Set timing and head a tap on the D side. P side nice and quiet. Installed a valve cover with top cut out and used an automotive stethoscope with a "probe" end and placing it on the rocker hold down bolt head, I found the tapping to be one rocker on #6 and #7. It appears to be 2 lifters doing all the tapping. All the bolt heads are the same sound but those 2 and they're loud.

Swapped the rockers around no change. Pushrods are not bent. It's a top end tap that changes with RPM. Bottom end is quiet.

So changing lifters.

Tim

 

[Broncobowsher]

If you have not figured it out by now, there is a lot of variation. In the end it all works one way or another. Even if primed, by the time the heads are on and the valves are set they will bleed down before you start it. Positive stop valve train, you set it and the valve will initally open a little but the valve spring will force the lifter to bleed to submission.

What I do is a hybrid of the dry/soaked methods. I dunk them, pump a couple of times while dunked but not enough that they go solid. Drop them in and run. That way I know there is at least a little oil inside.

Adjustable valvetrain needs to be watched. I really prefer to install the rockers and set everything before the intake goes on just so I can watch the lifters. Before setting final preload make sure the lifter isn't compressed. The cup should be up against the retainer. If it is compressed, take the pushrod out and wait. Won't be fast, maybe overnight, but it better come back up. Now you can set that preload. This is why I do it one cylinder at a time. Set to TDC firing, drop in both pushrods, both rockers, set, turn crank and go to the next. If you do all the pushrods and rockers at once then go to set preload the lifter can bottom out while sitting on the lobe and when you go to set the preload you are just setting the valve to hang open instead. Solid lifters don't have this problem.

 

[pcf_mark]

Damn you officially have the worst luck. Sorry!

 

[Timmy390]

Damn you officially have the worst luck. Sorry!

Yes I do but I'm not throwing in the towel on this thing yet. I started to do so and cut my losses but when I was driving it after the rebuild, it was SO nice I can't give up. Going to see it through on prensiples alone.

Really wishing I had spent the extra and got the aluminum version of the GT40 upper.....LOL Not looking forward to taking that cast iron badboy off yet again. My 50 year old back is taking a beating.....

Tim

 

[dholder]

With the head changes, lifter changes and cam changes that occurred, you may simply have pushrods that are too short.
I just changed a set of lifters because one was tapping loudly in a 1990 5.0 roller. Installed a new set of Ford Racing Products lifters and nothing else. The engine was so noisy, I think every single lifter was tapping at that point.
Installed a new set of longer pushrods, and all noise disappeared.
Apparently the FRP lifters were slightly shorter than stock.
So while adjustment is normally not required, if anything is changed, valve lash should be measured and corrected , if needed.

 

[Timmy390]

With the head changes, lifter changes and cam changes that occurred, you may simply have pushrods that are too short.
I just changed a set of lifters because one was tapping loudly in a 1990 5.0 roller. Installed a new set of Ford Racing Products lifters and nothing else. The engine was so noisy, I think every single lifter was tapping at that point.
Installed a new set of longer pushrods, and all noise disappeared.
Apparently the FRP lifters were slightly shorter than stock.
So while adjustment is normally not required, if anything is changed, valve lash should be measured and corrected , if needed.

D side is nice and quiet no tapping. P side has tapping on 2 rockers only so hoping it's not pushrods

Tim

 

[Joe473]

It only takes a few minutes to check pushrod length as you reassemble. Alex's has the different length pushrods. If your heads had a valve job that may be part of the issue too .

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