Brake lights lighting up front turn signals

[got-broncos]

Trying to fix turn signals & brake lights. A while back put a new turn signal stop cam on. I just checked brown wire is mounted outside & red is mounted on the inside of cam. Put old stock steering wheel on. Now the brakes light up the high on front turn signals. Could the flasher & blinker relays cause this?

 

[Yeller]

The issue is the switch in the column. It is the only thing that can cause that. I've replaced plenty of brand new ones that were bad. If you can find one find a Motorcraft switch, they are better.

 

[got-broncos]

What switch are you talking about? The hazard switch?

 

[Yeller]

The turn signal switch in the column. In theory if you have the dash mounted hazard switch that could do that as well, but those are generally not the issue. Sometimes I forget that some years of broncos had the hazard switch on the dash.

 

[DirtDonk]

So it's been doing it ever since you installed the stop/cancelling cam lever thingy? Looks like this: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Turn-Signal-Canceling-Cam/Bronco_Stock_Column_Parts correct?
Did you mess with the switch or column wiring at all, other than to just cut and splice in the two wires? You did not replace the entire switch in other words, just the release lever thingy?

Paul

 

[Steve83]

...a new turn signal stop cam...

Just the cam - not the whole turn/hazard assembly? Did you adjust the whiskers? It's a nightmare to install those things right, and they generally don't last.

(click this text)

Could the flasher & blinker relays cause this?

There are no relays - just a turn flasher & a hazard flasher. No, they can't cause this.

You should put ALL your Bronco's details into your signature so we know what you're working on. Look at Paul's for an example, but more info is always better.

 

[BGBronco]

Out of curiosity, is the problem with LED lights? I had this issue on my Defender when I upgraded. Never figured it out.

 

[got-broncos]

No, stock taillights.

 

[got-broncos]

DirtDonk, yes just installed cancellation cam, like you said.

 

[DirtDonk]

There are no relays - just a turn flasher & a hazard flasher. No, they can't cause this.

We've had this discussion here before, but it's been awhile so might as well bring it back up. Sorry for the temporary hijacking got-broncos!;D

Why aren't they relays Steve? They've been called that by some for as long as I can remember. Winker relays, flasher relays, turn-signal relays, etc.
They are an electro/thermo-mechanical switching mechanism that opens and closes a circuit. Kind of like a relay... Right?
Power comes in one side of the breaker points (or whatever the switching mechanism is), then flows through and out the other side when the current is given a path (when it's grounded through the load).

So is it not a relay because it's not being used as a remote switch that's triggered by another switch? But instead is just a temporary open/close switch/breaker (literally like a circuit breaker?) based on the ability for current to flow through it to a load? Or whatever the proper terminology is.
What makes a relay a relay and a flasher a flasher. And do not the two meet on some level? After all, it is triggered by a switch (the turn-signal switch) when that switch is closed to allow flow to the load.

Maybe I'm off base because I'm simplifying it. But I've heard them called relays since I was a kid, so very curious as to why a flasher cannot also be a relay.

Thanks

Paul

 

[Steve83]

Why aren't they relays...?

You know what a "relay race" is, right? One racer hands something off to another racer who continues the race. An electric relay uses a low-current signal to control a high-current load (like the ~5A ignition switch using the starter relay to control the ~150A starter motor). That's not what a flasher does. A flasher is a self-resetting circuit breaker designed to trip & reset based on time, instead of current (like most circuit breakers). It's supposed to produce a very-regular on-off cycle. That's nothing like a relay.

They've been called that by some for as long as I can remember.

Same for "starter solenoid" (which is often used for starter relays), right? And "antifreeze" (which is really anti-boil) and "hot water heater" (which is really COLD water heater), and so many other names that you know are wrong, but everyone keeps using them. A shock absorber doesn't absorb any shock - that's what the springs do. The "shock absorber" is really a "spring damper" because it prevents the spring from continuing to bounce. A convection oven doesn't rely on convection - that's how conventional ovens work. The heat from their elements heats the air, which then convects (due to the decrease in density causing the air to flow around the oven) up to the food. A "convection oven" is specifically built to NOT rely on convection - it has a fan to force the air to circulate.

I could go on, but you get the point. People use the wrong words all the time. But when someone is trying to ID & diagnose a problem on his antique vehicle, I think it's useful to use the correct words because it reduces confusion. A flasher only causes a circuit to flash on & off in a regular cycle. A relay relays a small signal to a heavier load.

 

[jamesroney]

You know what a "relay race" is, right? One racer hands something off to another racer who continues the race. An electric relay uses a low-current signal to control a high-current load (like the ~5A ignition switch using the starter relay to control the ~150A starter motor). That's not what a flasher does. A flasher is a self-resetting circuit breaker designed to trip & reset based on time, instead of current (like most circuit breakers). It's supposed to produce a very-regular on-off cycle. That's nothing like a relay.Same for "starter solenoid" (which is often used for starter relays), right? And "antifreeze" (which is really anti-boil) and "hot water heater" (which is really COLD water heater), and so many other names that you know are wrong, but everyone keeps using them. A shock absorber doesn't absorb any shock - that's what the springs do. The "shock absorber" is really a "spring damper" because it prevents the spring from continuing to bounce. A convection oven doesn't rely on convection - that's how conventional ovens work. The heat from their elements heats the air, which then convects (due to the decrease in density causing the air to flow around the oven) up to the food. A "convection oven" is specifically built to NOT rely on convection - it has a fan to force the air to circulate.

I could go on, but you get the point. People use the wrong words all the time. But when someone is trying to ID & diagnose a problem on his antique vehicle, I think it's useful to use the correct words because it reduces confusion. A flasher only causes a circuit to flash on & off in a regular cycle. A relay relays a small signal to a heavier load.

Paul, the old 3 pin flasher used to drive a single dash indicator is a flasher relay. The Bronco does not use a flasher relay. It uses a two pin flasher.

Steve's analogy for a relay race is valid, butÂ…
A relay is not required to allow small current to control big current. Consider an isolation relay, or a time delay relay. Nothing to do with big vs small current. The “I” terminal on the Ford starter relay is an isolation relay.

A convection oven uses forced air to transfer heat. It is not a free convection oven. But it is still convection.

The starter relay on the Bronco has a solenoid inside of it. (Electromagnet coil to drive a contractor). The Delco starter solenoid also has a relay function. But the bendix motion on the Delco starter is driven by the electromagnet in the “starter solenoid.”

But Steve is correct about the 2 pin flasher. It is a circuit interrupter, not a relay.
I've got to think about the shock absorber nomenclature. I'm inclined to think that a wheel that hits a bump at speed would introduce a shock to the “spring-mass” system. Adding a damper would indeed dampen the oscillation from the bump. So the “shock absorber” is the damper in the “spring-mass-damper” system. Perhaps it would be more correct to call it a “rebound absorber” but it does in fact dampen the shock load. (By transferring it to the passenger…)

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks both Steve and James. Appreciate the insight and education.

Same for "starter solenoid" (which is often used for starter relays), right?

Yep, a pet peeve of ours for years. I did in fact mean to add that to my comment but my mind continued on and it was late and I completely forgot to throw that in there.
It was one of the first things I thought of as I was asking the question.

Thanks

Paul

 

[Steve83]

...the old 3 pin flasher used to drive a single dash indicator is a flasher relay.

I've never seen one, either IRL or in a wiring diagram. All the old OE 3-pin flashers I've seen (and those I have) are simply flashers whose heating elements are externally grounded, exactly like modern solid-state replacement flashers with an added external ground wire so they can work with LEDs.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PM3COJA
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JXLH7CG

I don't know what "flasher relay" means, or how it's different from a "relay". The name suggests that, given a steady trigger current, it would flash the load. That's technically what a "flasher" does, IF you consider the heating element to be an independent circuit (and it sort of IS in a 3-pin flasher). But rather than using a magnetic solenoid, a flasher commonly uses a bimetallic strip to make/break the circuit. So are you saying that a "flasher relay" contains something to turn a magnetic relay on & off? Then that first link above is a "flasher relay", but it's called an "electronic flasher" (now; back in the 90s they were called "solid-state flashers").

Nothing to do with big vs small current.

True, but that's how they're primarily used. The relay name refers to the fact that the trigger circuit is discrete, and so is the load circuit. So the current in the trigger is "relayed" to the load, without actually FLOWING to the load - they're isolated. You might use a common 3A relay to control a 1A LED, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a relay.

The “I” terminal on the Ford starter relay is an isolation relay.

It's EXACTLY as isolated as the 2 main terminals, so I don't follow your logic, or that nomenclature. Every relay isolates the load from the trigger. That's what makes them relays. To call some of them "isolation relays" doesn't make sense to me.

...and just to state the obvious: the I on that terminal means "Ignition" - not isolation.

But it is still convection.

Only in the sense of heat being transferred to an intermediate fluid, but that's not what anyone means when saying "convection currents" (which is admittedly redundant) - they mean the natural un-forced flow caused by a fluid being hotter & less-dense below (in the sense of gravity) a connected area of the same fluid that's cooler & more-dense. Same as atmospheric turbulence for airplanes. The only difference between conventional & convection ovens is the fan. But a fan doesn't cause convection or cooking, so it's a misnomer.

The starter relay on the Bronco has a solenoid inside of it.

So does the horn relay. And virtually every other relay (not solid-state relays). We don't name things for ONE of their component subsystems. Do you call your Bronco a "relay"? It has one inside it. The solenoid (in the relay) has a wire inside it - should we start calling solenoids "wires"? A relay is called that because of its overall function.

The Delco starter solenoid also has a relay function.

So does the Ford starter solenoid, and most other brands of starter solenoids. But that's a secondary purpose for all of them. You can tell because it draws a LOT more current than needed to close that switch, so that's not its main function. It has to draw that much to pull the Bendix into the flywheel, so that's its main function, making it a solenoid. The fact that it's convenient, cheap, easy, & efficient to add a switch to the back (making it also perform a relay function) doesn't change what it is.

...it does in fact dampen the shock load. (By transferring it to the passenger&#8230

Again - your terminology doesn't make sense to me. A "damped" shock load is NOT a shock load. Those terms in this context are opposites, and mutually exclusive. If the shock was damped, it wasn't a shock; if it WAS a shock, then what got damped? But the term "spring damper" is very meaningful, in that it adds friction to the system to dissipate the spring's energy and reduce the motion it's causing. That doesn't transfer anything perceptible to the passenger - it only heats the oil in the damper (shock absorber) and then slowly releases that heat to the air.

And if the spring doesn't absorb the shock, what's its purpose? Would the "shock absorber" still absorb shocks if there were no spring?

 

[ol gray mare]

Do the brake lights lights work in back?

 

[got-broncos]

Do the brake lights lights work in back?

No, it's lighting up the turn signals on the grill.

 

[armynavy17]

Any possibility you drilled through or otherwise damaged some other wiring in the turn signal switch?
I just replaced mine the other day and accidentally crushed a wire on the new switch when I was installing it. Ended up grounding the stop switch wire in the column and gave me all sorts of issues with brake lights and turn signals until I found it.

 

[surfer-b]

What yr Bronco, not sure about a BRN or RD wire going into the turn sig switch. The only way this can happn is when the brakes are applied the brake light switch, located on the brake pedal, is sending voltage through the switch on the RD/BLK to the turn signal switch in the column, which it does anyway, however it is now feeding the GRN/WHT and WHT/BLU wires in the turn switch. If I understand you correctly you only replaced the cam and not the switch? Will the turn signals work if used? Sounds if though the arms in the signal switch have broke and are making contact with the front signals only. Do the turn signal indicators in the instrument cluster light up also when the brakes are applied?
Only other way I can think of is that the RD/BLK, GRN/WHT, WHT/BLU wires have been pinched at same place and are making contact, however the rear brake lights would be working also when the brake is applied in this case, unless the YEL/BLK and GRN wire were completely broke into, which I doubt. You prob gonna have to break out the volt meter and do some continuity testing to sort this out.

chk out this schematic, look at the turn sig switch

https://seabiscuit68.tripod.com/images/75-77_combined_v2.gif