Izzy's build... Time to say goodbye...

[Izzy]

Trust me guys, I feel like an idiot and I'm sure once I figure this out, I will go crawl in a hole somewhere and hide for a bit.

Reminds me of when I put the shifter on my tranny backwards and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't go into reverse.

 

[NYLES]

he could just pull the cover make sure both valves are closed line up the pointer, and stab it!......... killin me!!!!!!

 

[broncoitis]

I'm frustrated because I agree that it should be easier than I am making it but regardless, it's not starting yet. I do have a buddy coming over tomorrow to help me confirm TDC and he is going to look at my valves with me to confirm they are opening and closing correctly.

I appreciate the help guys. Hopefully this is something relaly small and stupid that I am missing and that there is not something wrong with my heads or valves.

Izzy,

Before you go and pull the valve covers and all that mayhem.

1. Find a way to get the spark plug out without having to remove the headers.

2. Next, disconnect the coil from the Dizzy.

3. Next put your thumb over the hole for the number one cylinder. Just to be sure, it is the one on the passenger side of the engine at the front. They are number 1-2-3-4 on the passenger side front to back and 5-6-7-8 on the driver side front to back!

4. Have somebody just click the starter and eventually you should feel the pressure from the compression stroke literally push your thumb off the hole. If you want, just crank the engine the first time to see what we are talking about. Next time around you will get the same effect from just clicking over the starter once you feel the pressure pushing off your thumb, STOP clicking the starter. At that point the timing marks should be coming up on the damper. Line the rest up by hand to 10 degrees or so.

5. Next, get the dizzy lined up directly with the number one spark plug. You can use a piece of tape or something for reference to mark that point with the cap on so you know where it is when you take the cap off. Usually not clearly marked from what I have seen.

6. Next, you are running the HO firing order on this engine. 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Make sure that your plugs reflect that starting from number one and moving counterclockwise around the cap.

7. Next, hook up the coil again and start that THING UP!

Just so you know, it isn't gonna fire right up immediately! You may have to crank it for a few seconds before she fires up. Remember that computer and the injectors have been sitting doing nothing and sometime is takes a few seconds to get them going. Future startups will be faster once the timing is set and adjustments are made.

From talking with you, you seem to have most of this done. The only question that remains is getting it on the compression stroke with the thumb test and finding a solution to getting out the number one plug without having to remove the header! Go to AutoZone by the Lowe's there and see what they have in the tool section and im sure you can come up with a solution to that problem. ;D

 

[broncoitis]

Trust me guys, I feel like an idiot and I'm sure once I figure this out, I will go crawl in a hole somewhere and hide for a bit.

Reminds me of when I put the shifter on my tranny backwards and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't go into reverse.

Ahh, don't worry about it. Part of the learning curve. Everyone on this site has gone through similar things I have no doubt. LOL!!!

Well maybe everyone but VIPER! He is just amazing with his knowledge but even he was a GRASSHOPPER at one point. ;D

I wanna hear that you got that thing running tonight. Barring any other problems should be able to fire it up and less than 20 minutes after checking all the little details.

 

[DirtDonk]

I think he's been doing all this to avoid pulling a valve cover in the first place. Wasn't it earlier in this thread that he said he'd have to remove the upper intake to get the cover off?
Here ya go Iz. From the other thread in TECH.

This is the ultimate chill-out-and-cool-off session for that hot Texas weather.
Cracks me up enough each time to justify me re-posting it here.

 

[Nightstick]

he could just pull the cover make sure both valves are closed line up the pointer, and stab it!......... killin me!!!!!!

LMAO... Maybe I'll bring the ol dodge over and i'll push you down the street at about 30mph then you pop the clutch and be on your way.

Izzy is gonna swing by this evening and get my two EECs so he can swap them out in case that's the problem. Let me ask the gurus this, if Izzy's EEC has been tuned and he doesn't know it, could that be causing it not to start?

 

[NYLES]

Izzy just bring it to me!!! Im off 4 days

 

[broncoitis]

I think he's been doing all this to avoid pulling a valve cover in the first place. Wasn't it earlier in this thread that he said he'd have to remove the upper intake to get the cover off?
Here ya go Iz. From the other thread in TECH.

This is the ultimate chill-out-and-cool-off session for that hot Texas weather.
Cracks me up enough each time to justify me re-posting it here.

Now that is a Chillin Bulldog!

 

[Izzy]

Sorry I hadn't responded yet, i had meetings all afternoon and into the evening.

Nyles, your 8 hours away... if only you were closer....

I'm not working on the Bronco tonight but will pick up on it again tomorrow after work. I'm just too tired tonight.

 

[broncoitis]

Just keep us posted. We are all waiting eagerly to hear you say its running. ;D

 

[Viperwolf1]

if Izzy's EEC has been tuned and he doesn't know it, could that be causing it not to start?

That would depend on the tune I suppose. If it had a tune it should have an extra chip plugged into the back of it though.

 

[Izzy]

I do not see any extra chips in the back or anything.

Here are a few questions though that I have though of over the last day since I haven't been able to work on it.

I know we all assume this is a timing issue and it very well could still be but could it be any of the following?

1. Distributor? - So far, I have only verified that I am getting spark on the 1 plug, I haven't verified the rest of them. Could the issue be the distributor regardloess of the spark?
2. Computer - I am not getting any bad codes but could it still be the computer?
3. Poorly built or built incorrectly engine - This was my first build so did I do something wrong? It was mentioned before about the timing chain being wrong. I remember there being 3 options on the install. ATC, 0, and BTC. I installed it on the 0 option. It really seamed like there was only one way to install it so I can't imagine it's backwards or anything. Pulling the valve cover and verifying the valves are opening and closing should confirm if that was built correctlly right? Is it possible to mess up the install and the valves not open and close correctly?

Again, the assumption here is timing but I'm nervous it's not timing. I'll get to work on it more tonight but just brainstorming before I get home and back in the garage.

 

[Viperwolf1]

All are possible.

The distributor has a stator in it that tells the ECM the position of the crankshaft. This lets the ECM know when to fire which injector. If that stator signal, called the PIP, isn't getting out the ECM will assume the engine isn't running and it won't fire the injectors.

You can borrow another ECM to eliminate that.

If you put the timing chain on and it looked right at the time it probably is. Even if it was advanced or retarded slightly it would still run.

The thing is there are many possibilities. You need to eliminate some to find the real problem. If you don't do this you'll end up throwing expensive parts at it until you get fed up and quit. The first step is to eliminate the timing error.

 

[Izzy]

Thanks Viper.

I guess there in lies the problem. I feel about 75-80% confident I had the timing right but as I said before, a friend is coming over tonight to verify that with me. If it still doesn't start after tonight, then the issue is not timing.

I guess I'll just stop guessing for now and see what my buddy says tonight.

 

[Izzy]

Admin, can you please remove my guru status? I don't even remotely deserve it.

Looks like I didn't properly conduct the right checks while I was building the engine. My buddy that came over tonight says I'm not getting any compression. What I was feeling was not compression (lesson 1).

He thinks I installed the timing chain wrong and did not line up the crank and the cam at 12 and 6 correctly and I think he is right. I went back and read the book and I either didn't read that part or didn't understand it and glossed over it.

I'm taking a break while I type but I am going to take the front dress of and take a look at it tonight.

Glad we found the potential issue but sucks that I missed something that could have easily been avoided.

Oh, and this explains why I kept feeling the the same type of pressure on the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke.

 

[DirtDonk]

That would do it. And you have the satisfaction of knowing that it is indeed a "timing" issue.
Just not the timing we were thinking of. Instead it would be the "valve timing" in this case!

Good luck. But try this, before you pull all that front stuff off (if'n you haven't already).
Pull just one valve cover. Whichever one is easier. Then watch the valves while you spin the engine and compare the open/close events to the timing marks on the damper.

Someone here will know off the top of their head which valves should be doing what when the engine is in a specific position.
Besides, you might get lucky and find out that you have an adjustable valvetrain and you just torqued them all down like a stock non-adjustable valvetrain!
Silly yes, but WAY better than trying to fix the cam timing.

Good luck.

Paul

 

[bax]

Or you may find that you bent every intake valve because the cam timing was not in sinc with the crank. It happens. Lest hope for Dirt Donk's version.

 

[Izzy]

I get everything apart and confirmed that the timing chain was way off. So I did install it wrong. Only issue I ran into taking everything off was I tried to not take the oil pan off and just let it hang a bit. All went perfect except I tore the front part of the oil pan seal so now I have to drop it anyway to put a new seal on. Oh well.

In regards to the chain. I now have the dots lined up with the upper crank gear at 6:00 and the cam gear at 12:00. Both valves are open (took the cover off) and the piston is at TDC. So I guess I can verify by stabbing the distri now right?

Anything else I should check before I start buttoning this back together?

 

[Izzy]

Or you may find that you bent every intake valve because the cam timing was not in sinc with the crank. It happens. Lest hope for Dirt Donk's version.

Man I hope not. What should I check to verify?

 

[Viperwolf1]

I get everything apart and confirmed that the timing chain was way off. So I did install it wrong. Only issue I ran into taking everything off was I tried to not take the oil pan off and just let it hang a bit. All went perfect except I tore the front part of the oil pan seal so now I have to drop it anyway to put a new seal on. Oh well.

In regards to the chain. I now have the dots lined up with the upper crank gear at 6:00 and the cam gear at 12:00. Both valves are open (took the cover off) and the piston is at TDC. So I guess I can verify by stabbing the distri now right?

Anything else I should check before I start buttoning this back together?

Post a pic of the gears.