Just One Door Gap

[rubberneck]

I have acceptable 3/16" door gaps everywhere EXCEPT the driver side rear door gap is at a heavy 1/16". I've been tidying up in prep for body work/paint. Installed new 1" BL & new hinges. Put an 1/8" shim in the passenger side rear body mount. The doors lined up nice and are flush with both the fenders & quarters. I broke out the tape measure and figured out that the driver side quarter is about and 1/8". Is there anything I can do to get this to open up? I am thinking of using some washers on the inside bolts of the hinges on the driver's 'A' pillar to rock the hinge knuckle forward. I thinking this would, at least, equalize the vertical door gaps. Any thoughts or recommendations on this?

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/media/doorgap3-jpg.32088/

 

[jamesroney]

I have acceptable 3/16" door gaps everywhere EXCEPT the driver side rear door gap is at a heavy 1/16". I've been tidying up in prep for body work/paint. Installed new 1" BL & new hinges. Put an 1/8" shim in the passenger side rear body mount. The doors lined up nice and are flush with both the fenders & quarters. I broke out the tape measure and figured out that the driver side quarter is about and 1/8". Is there anything I can do to get this to open up? I am thinking of using some washers on the inside bolts of the hinges on the driver's 'A' pillar to rock the hinge knuckle forward. I thinking this would, at least, equalize the vertical door gaps. Any thoughts or recommendations on this?

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/media/doorgap3-jpg.32088/

HUH??? What exactly are you trying to fix? And what are you willing to give up to get it? If the door envelope dimensions are as you have shown on your attachment, then you already know that your design is over-constrained. The only way to get the door opening to be 1/8 inch bigger is to EITHER move the a pillar forward, or move the b-post and quarter panel rearward. So which is it? If it is wrong at the A-pillar, then you will know when you mount the fenders and the grill...and the hood will be crooked to the cowl. If it is wrong at the b-post, then the rear floor to seat riser needs to be un-welded, and stretched.

You can tell pretty fast what is crooked by looking at the windshield piano hinge, and see exactly where it lines up with the door edge. If the windshield hinge is square to the door edge, then the back of the Bronco is crooked. If the windshield hinge is fore or aft of the other side, then the A-Pillar needs to move.

If you build a few of these, or assemble them from kits...what you will learn is that the Factory built the cowl crooked and passenger side is longer than the driver's side. Worse, the aftermarket CLONED exactly the defect, and if you use the reference holes in the aftermarket cowl...it also comes out wrong. I know of a couple of high end body shops that have ended up shimming, or shaving, or cutting the hood because the A-post was in the wrong location. I know for sure that my 1967 body is crooked, because I have a perfect, unmolested, original Bronco with the RH door opening bigger than the Driver.

This might give you some appreciation for the people that get these Bronco's straight.

So now that we have that out of the way, If you want to cheat the opening and center the door, I have found that it is easy to just bend the factory door hinge in a press to pick up 1/16" or so. No one will ever know except you. Gotta be careful though. If you move the door forward the full 1/8 inch, the upper door window frame will contact the windshield. 1/8 inch is an awful lot to cheat. I would tell you to remove the fender, and porta-power the A pillar, but then you will be mad at me when the grill doesn't align with the hood anymore.

Welcome to the party!

 

[pcf_mark]

Bend the hinge sounds like an amazing solution.

I ended up sectioning the fender to match the door and welding it back up so it lined up nice. Aftermarket fenders stink.

 

[rubberneck]

Bend the hinge sounds like an amazing solution.

I ended up sectioning the fender to match the door and welding it back up so it lined up nice. Aftermarket fenders stink.

I'm going to bend the hinges. Seems like to best alternative now. Weird thing is it's all original metal, no re-pops. It all started from the 1" BL. Before the new body mounts the doors were really bad.

 

[rubberneck]

HUH??? What exactly are you trying to fix? And what are you willing to give up to get it? If the door envelope dimensions are as you have shown on your attachment, then you already know that your design is over-constrained. The only way to get the door opening to be 1/8 inch bigger is to EITHER move the a pillar forward, or move the b-post and quarter panel rearward. So which is it? If it is wrong at the A-pillar, then you will know when you mount the fenders and the grill...and the hood will be crooked to the cowl. If it is wrong at the b-post, then the rear floor to seat riser needs to be un-welded, and stretched.

You can tell pretty fast what is crooked by looking at the windshield piano hinge, and see exactly where it lines up with the door edge. If the windshield hinge is square to the door edge, then the back of the Bronco is crooked. If the windshield hinge is fore or aft of the other side, then the A-Pillar needs to move.

If you build a few of these, or assemble them from kits...what you will learn is that the Factory built the cowl crooked and passenger side is longer than the driver's side. Worse, the aftermarket CLONED exactly the defect, and if you use the reference holes in the aftermarket cowl...it also comes out wrong. I know of a couple of high end body shops that have ended up shimming, or shaving, or cutting the hood because the A-post was in the wrong location. I know for sure that my 1967 body is crooked, because I have a perfect, unmolested, original Bronco with the RH door opening bigger than the Driver.

This might give you some appreciation for the people that get these Bronco's straight.

So now that we have that out of the way, If you want to cheat the opening and center the door, I have found that it is easy to just bend the factory door hinge in a press to pick up 1/16" or so. No one will ever know except you. Gotta be careful though. If you move the door forward the full 1/8 inch, the upper door window frame will contact the windshield. 1/8 inch is an awful lot to cheat. I would tell you to remove the fender, and porta-power the A pillar, but then you will be mad at me when the grill doesn't align with the hood anymore.

Welcome to the party!

Thanks! I'm going to bend the hinges like you mentioned.

 

[jaminjim77]

Question.....what is the correct width of the door opening? I have seen the picture showing dimensions and it indicates that 39 inches is correct but the resolution of the pic isn't clear. 39 inches measured from where to where????

 

[jamesroney]

Question.....what is the correct width of the door opening? I have seen the picture showing dimensions and it indicates that 39 inches is correct but the resolution of the pic isn't clear. 39 inches measured from where to where????

I just went outside and measurerd my door. It is 38-7/8 inches wide. It is 38-7/8 at the top, at the middle, and at the bottom.

38-7/8 is the one measurement that nobody can mess with. Unless you re-skin the door, or if you cut and weld the hem. But a factory door with factory bends are 38-7/8, and the aftermarket re-pops are coming in at 38-7/8 as well. Take that 38-7/8 and add 3/16 per side, and you end up with a door opening envelope of 39-1/4. A perfect door opening of 39-1/4 makes the door fit right. 39-1/4 happens to be the length of the rocker panel.

39 inches might be a nominal number, as I have never used it, or measured it, on a Bronco. I am curious where it comes from. In a SWAG approximation, the door is ~39, and the gaps are ~1/8. So the net opening of 39-1/4 is still valid.

If you find that one of your openings is bigger than the other, many came that way. It is not right, it is not intended, and it looks horrid. I have never seen a factory opening smaller than 39-1/4. But I've seen them bigger. Usually on the passenger side, at least up to 1968. If you take a meter-stick, and cut 1/8 inch off of it, that's your gage.

It is worth noting that the door to rocker gap is NEVER 3/16. Doors are always short. Factory doors are short, repops are exact clones of the factory ones. Improperly installed rockers can get it pretty close, but then the door sills hold water. Pick your poison.

 

[jaminjim77]

Thank you. Sooooo the door opening should be 39-1/4. Exactly from where on the A pillar to where on the B pillar????

 

[jamesroney]

Thank you. Sooooo the door opening should be 39-1/4. Exactly from where on the A pillar to where on the B pillar????

Impossible to determine on the A pillar. This is the difficulty. The A pillar is nebulous, and has no reference points. And the door hinge pads are angled. There is not good measurement for the A pillar without a fixture. The easiest fixture is the original fender. The rearmost edge of the front fender defines the door envelope. This is why everybody buys fenders with the brackets un-welded. Because the location fore and aft on the fender can be moved a good 1/8. (and that does not mean +/- 1/16!) it means it can go rearward 1/8, but it can't go forward.

So the answer is 39-1/4 from the back of the fender to the front of the quarter panel. I suppose I could give you a number from the quarter to the center of the a-pillar mounting hole, but then you will be mad when the door doesn't fit.

I tell this to people all the time. So here we go again:
Step 1. Mount the hood.
Step 2. Mount the grill to the fenders. (preferably the original factory ones that you will throw away, but new ones are OK too once you do step 4.)
Step 3. Align the grill front edge to the hood front edge.
Step 4. Bend / install / unweld / re-weld the fender bracket to the A pillar.
Step 5. Measure the door opening.
Step 6. If it is 29-1/4 on both sides, at both top and bottom, you are golden.
Step 7. It never is, unless you assembled the cowl, and the rear bed floor yourself.

Note that it is impossible to install the a-pillar correctly. You can EITHER hang the door to match the b-pillar and the hood will be wrong, or you can match the hood, and one door will be wrong. So you need to decide for yourself what it means to be "correct." Do you want it the same as stock, or do you want it right? You would think that those are the same thing, but they are not. Every Single Bronco that I have ever measured (prior to the 1977 Body) is crooked. 1977 might be crooked too, but I don't work on those. I live in California, and 76-77's are junk here.

I have an, unmolested, original paint, never unbolted 1967 Bronco that has a factory shim under one hood hinge. If you have a shim under one hood hinge, it means that your Bronco is longer on one side than the other. So I just went outside and measured this one. For reference, it is 89-7/8 inches on the driver's side from the front of the stake pocket to the front of the door edge. I just hooked my tape measure on the stake pocket because it's an easy measurement. I think that this is the target specification. It is 90-1/16 on the passenger side. So yes, my passenger side door envelope is 3/16 bigger than my driver's side. And no, it shouldn't be. And yes, it came from the factory that way. And no, I don't like it.

 

[Oldtimer]

@jamesroney ,
Could you expose the windshield hinge pin, take pictures of door gap relation to hinge, and describe ideal and typical alignment?

 

[73azbronco]

Losen body mounts, try raising very front mount on that side, like a very small amount, or try raising rear side body mount of door issue.

 

[jamesroney]

@jamesroney ,
Could you expose the windshield hinge pin, take pictures of door gap relation to hinge, and describe ideal and typical alignment?

Yes, As long as no one uses it to place their A-pillar. Since I spent post #9 explaining that there is no single ideal location.

Note that the paint stick is .150, and the gage block is .250.
Driver's side is net 0. Windshield pivot pin is the same location as the door pin.
Passenger is -.25"

Don't try this at home.

 

[jaminjim77]

Thank you again. It is all starting to make sense.....Now I get to go measure everything.

 

[Speedrdr]

Never really looked at door gaps that closely before taking them off. I only recall that the gaps appeared to be uniform from top to bottom. The way I’m gonna look at it is this: I can’t see both sides at the same time when I’m physically with it so I don’t really care if it’s a 1/4” more on one of the sides. I’m just shooting for uniform gaps.

Randy

 

[jamesroney]

Never really looked at door gaps that closely before taking them off. I only recall that the gaps appeared to be uniform from top to bottom. The way I’m gonna look at it is this: I can’t see both sides at the same time when I’m physically with it so I don’t really care if it’s a 1/4” more on one of the sides. I’m just shooting for uniform gaps.

Randy

You're gonna care when the weatherstrip seals perfect on one side, but whistles, or pushes the door out of alignment on the other. Then you notice that the upper door frame doesn't fit against the windshield after you push the door back so that the latch functions.
Then you'll say things like: "I never noticed that before..."

But it's really only a problem if someone tries to fix it. Then the A pillar goes in the wrong place. Then the hood sits proud of the grill by 1/4 inch. Then the windshield rain gutter gets shaved. Then the hood gets stretched. Then the Shop gets sued. Then the owner has the Bronco sit for 2 years and buys another one. Then that project gets abandoned.

If you are doing the work, and it's your Bronco...I am 100% with you. But if you are doing it for a living...you need to have the experience to be able to tell the owner that it won't ever be right.

I spent most of my career explaining: "If you don't like my performance, lower your expectations..."

 

[Oldtimer]

So . . . if you shim the hood to get it flush with grill on both sides, do you losen front two body mounts and adjust core support sideways to get fender / hood gaps even?
Not actually trying to fix mine, just trying to understand what a guy goes thru to get it right/better.

 

[jamesroney]

So . . . if you shim the hood to get it flush with grill on both sides, do you losen front two body mounts and adjust core support sideways to get fender / hood gaps even?
Not actually trying to fix mine, just trying to understand what a guy goes thru to get it right/better.

Yes, although it is surprising how easy it is to fold the front aprons left to right on a Bronco. But yes. Hood bolts to cowl, then one side is short. Then shim added to make hood longer, which moves it to an angle. If you need shims on both sides, then you did it "the other wrong." Then aprons and core support shifted to maintain gap. You are assuming that a core support, aprons and skirts even exist on the car. Normally those are the first things to get cut off in pursuit of fixing the rusty door post. Once you get the hood straight, then there is endless bitching about how bad reproduction fenders are made. Then Wild H starts selling fenders un-welded.

Then your body man says: "My God, what did you do?"

 

[Speedrdr]

What you’re calling “aprons”, is that the same as inner fender skirt? If so, then they certainly do bend and wrinkle. Mine are so twisted and rotten that they are coming out (one is already in the scrap section) and I’ll start fresh from the A-pillars and move towards the front.
I’m going to do the body work myself so if anyone bitches about the quality, I’ll be looking in the mirror. Lol.
If it was an occupation to fix EB body parts, I’d consider a new occupation.

Randy

 

[Speedrdr]

At least my A-pillars are sound and appear to be straight.

Randy

 

[jamesroney]

What you’re calling “aprons”, is that the same as inner fender skirt? If so, then they certainly do bend and wrinkle. Mine are so twisted and rotten that they are coming out (one is already in the scrap section) and I’ll start fresh from the A-pillars and move towards the front.
I’m going to do the body work myself so if anyone bitches about the quality, I’ll be looking in the mirror. Lol.
If it was an occupation to fix EB body parts, I’d consider a new occupation.

Randy

My Father is probably rolling around in his grave right now. If you told him that your Bronco had a "fender skirt"...he would give you a lecture about an hour long about the time his fender skirt fell off his '50 Merc, and how they just don't make them like they used to. So yes, I am calling the fender Apron an apron, because the name skirt has been claimed by the folks who actually put fender skirts on cars. As you might be aware, apron and skirt are similar but different. An Apron is generally used to prevent spills on your clothing. A skirt is generally used to cover up the unsightly naughty parts. Similar to a kilt in that respect. Both can be worn from the hip, although the traditional American apron is a bib style worn around the neck. The famous French Maid Apron is a "waist apron" and has no straps. A Sarong can also be worn in the same fashion. All of these fashions can be complimented with Ruching (Pleats, Flutes, or Gathers) to achieve a slimming effect. When coupled with other clothing, like a body suit or shorts, a variety of active-wear can be achieved. Skorts, tennis shorts, and skirted leotards as well as skirted body suits with fringe can help to maintain a body positive image.

It is worth noting that when I am welding on my Bronco, I prefer bib and brace apron, or even split leg. Also, welding "Spats" are available for additional protection along with Gaiters. It is also worth noting that Australia and the UK refer to Fender Skirts, (not fender aprons, but fender skirts) as "Spats."
So there's that.

Sometimes I call wheel tubs aprons, and sometimes I call aprons skirts, and sometimes I call an inner fender a wheelhouse. It's a PITA, because I try to speak the language of my audience. And I often get it wrong. Then some knucklehead will create a parts website that won't search on the text string of "wheelhouse'" You must know to call it a "Rear Wheel Housing" or you are doomed. But if it is for the front, it is a "Front Inner Wheel Well" and yeah, they have them. (not in the Fender section, but in "more steel body parts...")

By now, you have figured out that I don't give a hoot what, how, when, or if you ever do anything to your Bronco, and I applaud any effort that you take to do it yourself. My goal was to point out that you have some choices when you repair your Bronco. You can repair it back to original, (as-built) or you can repair it back to design. (Blueprint) Or you can do it anywhere in between. But if you didn't measure it before it came apart...you can't expect it to go back together to print.

I need a new occupation...