Upgrades you regret

[toddz69]

2.5 inch suspension and Bilsteins. Like Broncobowsher said of his mod, this took the fun driving out of the picture. All I do is roll, pitch, and yaw my way across the landscape. Feels like driving a boat on choppy water.

Sorry to hear that - I would've guessed that combo would've really made it ride/handle better than stock.

Todd Z.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Ahh I worry about that with mine!

I made a new plan to rebuild it into more of a street rig. Looked at what I needed to do. Decided my best option was to sell it and start fresh. So I sold it, bought a daily driver while shopping, prices climbed, Eventually bought a dent side F250 to handle my old car fix. That was such a nice street cruiser that I really liked to drive. Big block, 3.07 gears, just cruised wonderful. Pretty much the exact opposite of what I made the Bronco into, but what I wanted the Bronco to be.

 

[jamesroney]

Ok, here's my top 50 list of "upgrades" that are actually downgrades, and I wish I have never seen or put on my Bronco...

(keep in mind that some of these are not "bad" but since there are improvements out there that are "better" that makes these "not as good" which = bad.

0. Any Chevrolet engine.
1. 28 spline alloy upgrade axles.
2. Rear disc brakes.
3. Bedliner anything.
4. 4 bbl carb.
5. 2WD F100 steering box.
6. Anything that says MSD under the hood.
7. Anything that says Holley under the hood.
8. Second generation Mexico made Optima batteries.
9. Heavy duty radiators.
10. Any performance muffler.
11. Any Dual exhaust.
12. Any headers.
13. Toploader 4 speed. (...and no, the NP435 / T98-T18-T19 is not a toploader)
14. Any 9 inch locker not named "Detriot"
15. Currie 8.8 high pinion.
16. Custom electric wipers to replace vacuum.
17. Any roll cage that interferes with my feet.
18. Bilstein front Shocks.
19. WCB 4x4x2 bracket.
20. Warn Integrated control pack winch. (xd9000i specifically so you can't open the hood.)
21. 33 inch tires.
22. Dana 44 track lok.
23. Any Borgeson universal joint.
24. Any custom steering wheel that won't cancel / fit / work.
25. Any aftermarket wiring harness named "Centech"
26. Any 23 gallon fuel tank mounted on unistrut.
27. Any external electric EFI fuel pump.
28. Any internal EFI pump using non-submersible rated hose.
29. Tom's off road custom replacement core supports.
30. Aftermarket kick panels built prior to 2020.
31. Rocker guards that sandwich the rocker, and rust.
32. Protofab full cage with integral seat mounts.
33. Steering shocks.
34. Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch.
35. Any expensive water pump.
36. High volume oil pump.
37. Comp Cams flat tappet camshafts built prior to 2020.
38. FI Tech throttle bodies.
39. Spicer u-joints.
40. Expensive motor oil.
41. Twin Stick shift levers.
42. Deluxe door panels.
43. Bronco Sport trim.
44. Cloth seats,
45. Carpet that holds water.
46. Automatic transmissions not named ZF-6HP26.
47. Body bolt kits not named AMK.
48. Explorer oil pan.
49. High Pinion D44.
50. Alternator bigger than 55A.

Honorable mention:
-Fox dual sump oil pan.
- pop rivets on fender flares.
-adjustable track bars and track bar brackets.
- evap charcoal can systems.
- any flex fan.
- cheap Chinese door strikers.
- Scott Drake door handle linkage.
- Any transfer case doubler / upgrade not named "atlas."
- wheel spacers.
- wheel locks with missing keys.
- d-ring mounts with holes that are too small for a d-ring.
- adjustable height bumpers.
- front axle tube seals.
- selectable rear hubs / floater kits.
- aluminum pulleys.
- any anti-theft device, especially hidden ones.
- any electric fan.
- any wiring modification that includes a scotch-lok, or a crimp connector, or a household wire nut.
- any digital display, guage, or instrument.

 

[toddz69]

Ok, here's my top 50 list of "upgrades" that are actually downgrades, and I wish I have never seen or put on my Bronco...

(keep in mind that some of these are not "bad" but since there are improvements out there that are "better" that makes these "not as good" which = bad.

9. Heavy duty radiators.
16. Custom electric wipers to replace vacuum.
18. Bilstein front Shocks.
21. 33 inch tires.
32. Protofab full cage with integral seat mounts.
33. Steering shocks.
34. Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch.
41. Twin Stick shift levers.
44. Cloth seats,
48. Explorer oil pan.
50. Alternator bigger than 55A.

Honorable mention:
- front axle tube seals.
- any anti-theft device, especially hidden ones.

Somebody's retired with a lot of time on their hands! As usual, with James' posts, I'm intrigued and chuckling to myself at the same time. If you don't mind, can you please elaborate on the ones I've listed above?

Thanks,
Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

Somebody's retired with a lot of time on their hands! As usual, with James' posts, I'm intrigued and chuckling to myself at the same time. If you don't mind, can you please elaborate on the ones I've listed above?

Thanks,
Todd Z.

Yes.
9. Heavy duty radiators. - If you have a properly functional cooling system, with a properly tuned engine...additional cooling capacity is not needed. The radiator in the Explorer / Mustang / Crown Vic is not heavy duty. Normal duty is more than adequate.

16. Custom electric wipers to replace vacuum. - These things are expensive, and the synchronized ones are worse. Factory wipers work just fine. Early vacuum wiper windshield frames bolt on. So just swap frames and viola! Factory wipers that work.

18. Bilstein front Shocks. - This is gonna take a long time, is somewhat controversial and I can't explain it until you do some Internet sleuthing. But do a search on Wrangler TJ/LJ suspension from a user named "mrBlaine." He postulates that all ride and handling is controlled *ONLY* by the shocks, and spring rate is only useful for setting ride height. I didn't originally agree, but within the constraints of commercially available spring rates, his generalization is actually correct. So if you don't like your ride/handling...it's in the domain of the dampers / shocks. The Bilstein has so much gas pressure in it that it obscures the ability to test and measure the dampening. So if you have a bad Bilstein shock...you can't tell on the bench. I just installed a set and one was poorly damped. But I couldn't tell off the car. I replaced them with a set of ancient RS5000's and the ride was dramatically changed.

21. 33 inch tires. - Yep, 35's is the trail standard.

32. Protofab full cage with integral seat mounts. - I'm 6'-4" tall, and when I installed the cage, my head was actually above the bars. Couldn't drive.

33. Steering shocks. - Properly built front steering does not need a HD steering shock. The factory one works fine and is not needed.

34. Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch. - Great clutch, and I love them. But an 11 inch LUK diaphragm will do the same job.

41. Twin Stick shift levers. - Upgrade that's not an upgrade. Unless you are doing front digs...then you'd better have an Atlas. Admittedly better than a worn out J-shift, but I see no value in a T shift.

44. Cloth seats, - When it rains, your pants get wet.

48. Explorer oil pan. - Gets in the way of the exhaust cross-over. So it's not an improvement.

50. Alternator bigger than 55A. The factory wiring can't handle more than 55A. And then amp gage stops working, and you set your dash on fire. But I always question who needs more than 55A in a Bronco. The battery only needs about 10 amps to charge, so what exactly are you using that needs 100A? Big stereo amp? Lights? ( Winch doesn't count in the load analysis, because the alternator won't run the winch.) The vast majority of people with 100A alternators NEVER use it. If you use your alternator as a welder, then fine. But if not, it's a waste.

This retired thing is working out pretty good...

 

[abrdn419]

I would say buying a sniper kit with coil, ignition box and distributor it was junk. Also moving my shifter from the column to a B&M floor shifter. Lastly would be dual wiper motors. Thats was the dumbest "upgrade" I did.

 

[fluffybunny]

Out of curiosity, where did you land on best value for toe for your rig?

About 1/8" in.

 

[Tricky Dick]

16. Custom electric wipers to replace vacuum. - These things are expensive, and the synchronized ones are worse. Factory wipers work just fine. Early vacuum wiper windshield frames bolt on. So just swap frames and viola! Factory wipers that work.

Vacuum wipers are even better than stock electric wipers?

I won't have any vacuum on mine so I was planning on something like the Tom's single motor electric kit.

 

[jamesroney]

Vacuum wipers are even better than stock electric wipers?

I won't have any vacuum on mine so I was planning on something like the Tom's single motor electric kit.

I think that 69.5 -77 wipers are the best. If you have a 66-69.5 vacuum set up, then I recommend to bolt on a 69.5+ windshield frame. Of course you will have to wire up the switch…

 

[Tricky Dick]

I think that 69.5 -77 wipers are the best. If you have a 66-69.5 vacuum set up, then I recommend to bolt on a 69.5+ windshield frame. Of course you will have to wire up the switch…

That's doable. My 66 frame doesn't have anything at right now.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I would say 35" tires are a waste on a trail rig. 33s fit, even though they rub a lot. You can get a lot of articulation with 33st that you can't with 35s. With the amount of work to properly clearance 35s, you might as well just do 37s. 35s are fine for the street and/or rigs that don't articulate well.

Never disliked a good 4-barrel. I remember what a difference there was when I had a 4-barrel with blocked secondaries and exact same once they were working right. Not full throttle stuff, just driving around normally it was a noticeable improvement.

Steering shock is mixed. Using one to fix a problem is wrong. Using one to prevent a problem is good. I like them to prevent damage to the steering box and frame. Just not good to try and fix a shimmy with one.

As for alternator, stock works fine on stock. Once I had EFI on top of air conditioner, at night, in the rain. Stock would not keep up at idle and barely maintained at speed. Stock was also very dirty with voltage spikes and dips all over the place. A SMALL 90A 3G was a great fix. Still happy on a single V-belt. Not the 130A 3G everyone gets that spokes the single V-belt. Yes, you have to address the charge wire with a 90A, but it fixes so much without creating new issues.

 

[toddz69]

Yes.
9. Heavy duty radiators. - If you have a properly functional cooling system, with a properly tuned engine...additional cooling capacity is not needed. The radiator in the Explorer / Mustang / Crown Vic is not heavy duty. Normal duty is more than adequate.

16. Custom electric wipers to replace vacuum. - These things are expensive, and the synchronized ones are worse. Factory wipers work just fine. Early vacuum wiper windshield frames bolt on. So just swap frames and viola! Factory wipers that work.

18. Bilstein front Shocks. - This is gonna take a long time, is somewhat controversial and I can't explain it until you do some Internet sleuthing. But do a search on Wrangler TJ/LJ suspension from a user named "mrBlaine." He postulates that all ride and handling is controlled *ONLY* by the shocks, and spring rate is only useful for setting ride height. I didn't originally agree, but within the constraints of commercially available spring rates, his generalization is actually correct. So if you don't like your ride/handling...it's in the domain of the dampers / shocks. The Bilstein has so much gas pressure in it that it obscures the ability to test and measure the dampening. So if you have a bad Bilstein shock...you can't tell on the bench. I just installed a set and one was poorly damped. But I couldn't tell off the car. I replaced them with a set of ancient RS5000's and the ride was dramatically changed.

21. 33 inch tires. - Yep, 35's is the trail standard.

32. Protofab full cage with integral seat mounts. - I'm 6'-4" tall, and when I installed the cage, my head was actually above the bars. Couldn't drive.

33. Steering shocks. - Properly built front steering does not need a HD steering shock. The factory one works fine and is not needed.

34. Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch. - Great clutch, and I love them. But an 11 inch LUK diaphragm will do the same job.

41. Twin Stick shift levers. - Upgrade that's not an upgrade. Unless you are doing front digs...then you'd better have an Atlas. Admittedly better than a worn out J-shift, but I see no value in a T shift.

44. Cloth seats, - When it rains, your pants get wet.

48. Explorer oil pan. - Gets in the way of the exhaust cross-over. So it's not an improvement.

50. Alternator bigger than 55A. The factory wiring can't handle more than 55A. And then amp gage stops working, and you set your dash on fire. But I always question who needs more than 55A in a Bronco. The battery only needs about 10 amps to charge, so what exactly are you using that needs 100A? Big stereo amp? Lights? ( Winch doesn't count in the load analysis, because the alternator won't run the winch.) The vast majority of people with 100A alternators NEVER use it. If you use your alternator as a welder, then fine. But if not, it's a waste.

This retired thing is working out pretty good...

Thanks - any inputs on the honorable mentions I noted: front axle seals and anti-theft devices? I'm close to having some diff work done on my front end and I also included some axle tube seals so I'm curious on your thoughts on those.

Thanks,
Todd Z.

 

[toddz69]

Yes.
9. Heavy duty radiators. - If you have a properly functional cooling system, with a properly tuned engine...additional cooling capacity is not needed. The radiator in the Explorer / Mustang / Crown Vic is not heavy duty. Normal duty is more than adequate.

16. Custom electric wipers to replace vacuum. - These things are expensive, and the synchronized ones are worse. Factory wipers work just fine. Early vacuum wiper windshield frames bolt on. So just swap frames and viola! Factory wipers that work.

Whew! So my custom ones on the bottom of my windshield don't fall into that category

18. Bilstein front Shocks. - This is gonna take a long time, is somewhat controversial and I can't explain it until you do some Internet sleuthing. But do a search on Wrangler TJ/LJ suspension from a user named "mrBlaine." He postulates that all ride and handling is controlled *ONLY* by the shocks, and spring rate is only useful for setting ride height. I didn't originally agree, but within the constraints of commercially available spring rates, his generalization is actually correct. So if you don't like your ride/handling...it's in the domain of the dampers / shocks. The Bilstein has so much gas pressure in it that it obscures the ability to test and measure the dampening. So if you have a bad Bilstein shock...you can't tell on the bench. I just installed a set and one was poorly damped. But I couldn't tell off the car. I replaced them with a set of ancient RS5000's and the ride was dramatically changed.

I know "mrblaine" reasonably well - have read zillions of his posts on the Jeep forums and he designed and built the brake brackets for my front disc brake conversion. I've read from other smart folks that the springs hold the truck up and the shocks do the rest. I can see the point but there are a lot of other smart folks on the other side who can make a good case that springs matter too, for ride frequency, etc. In any case, good spring/shock pairing is important. I currently have a less than ideal situation with my rig where I feel my rear springs are a little too soft so my previously rear critically damped setup is a little less so these days.

21. 33 inch tires. - Yep, 35's is the trail standard.

That's a bit subjective depending on what kind of trails you're running. I ran 35s for about 12-13 years. Then I ran 285/70/17s (metric 33s) for about 5 years with no deleterious effects on my trail performance, although I'm not running the Rubicon/Dusty Ershim, etc. I'm now back to 285/75/17s, which are about 33.5" in actual diameter, which is about what most "35s" actually measure - especially if they're BFGs.

32. Protofab full cage with integral seat mounts. - I'm 6'-4" tall, and when I installed the cage, my head was actually above the bars. Couldn't drive.

We tall folks do have a cross to bear (you, Abe Lincoln, and I are all the same height).

34. Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch. - Great clutch, and I love them. But an 11 inch LUK diaphragm will do the same job.

No experience with the Centerforce (they're now located in my hometown) but the LUK diaphragm clutch I installed with my 5.0 conversion back in '97 worked great

41. Twin Stick shift levers. - Upgrade that's not an upgrade. Unless you are doing front digs...then you'd better have an Atlas. Admittedly better than a worn out J-shift, but I see no value in a T shift.

A nicely done twin-stick is worlds better than a worn out T-shift too!

44. Cloth seats, - When it rains, your pants get wet.

Small price to pay for the hot weather comfort compared to the burns/swamp-ass you get with vinyl seats.

48. Explorer oil pan. - Gets in the way of the exhaust cross-over. So it's not an improvement.

Guess I need to compare the rear sump shape of the Explorer to the stock EB pan to see what the differences are - didn't know that. I DO know that the Explorer pan is much better than the Fox body pan when it comes to oil changes (1 drain plug) so I like it for that.

50. Alternator bigger than 55A. The factory wiring can't handle more than 55A. And then amp gage stops working, and you set your dash on fire. But I always question who needs more than 55A in a Bronco. The battery only needs about 10 amps to charge, so what exactly are you using that needs 100A? Big stereo amp? Lights? ( Winch doesn't count in the load analysis, because the alternator won't run the winch.) The vast majority of people with 100A alternators NEVER use it. If you use your alternator as a welder, then fine. But if not, it's a waste.

I can handle the wiring updates to handle the larger alternator and a voltmeter is handy to have as well. I may not use all its capacity but since I love numerous things about the Explorer front dress, I'm keeping the alternator that comes with it.

Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks - any inputs on the honorable mentions I noted: front axle seals and anti-theft devices? I'm close to having some diff work done on my front end and I also included some axle tube seals so I'm curious on your thoughts on those.

Thanks,
Todd Z.

Front axle inner seals are not the same as aftermarket "upgrade" billet tube seals. I had a set in my YJ, and the tubes filled with water, and wouldn't drain. Useless.

I don't believe in anti-theft devices, or theft prevention in general. My home is usually unlocked, and my cars are also unlocked most of the time. When I visit San Francisco I leave the car unlocked with the windows rolled down. Broken windows are expensive, and inconvenient.

My 1951 Willys M38 was never equipped with a key. Flip a lever, push a pedal. Conversely, the Dodge Challenger Hellcat is one of the most sophisticated, and elaborate, and well engineered theft prevention vehicles on the road today. It has every single modern deterrent. Column lock, shift lock, engine lock, keyless entry, GPS tracking, you name it. As of 2020, it leads the IIHS top 10 domestic vehicle stolen per vehicle registration. In an interesting confirmation bias case study, EVERY single vehicle in the IIHS top 10 stolen cars has more than the minimum level of theft deterrence. It is worth noting that the bottom 10 stolen cars ALSO has the similar deterrence. But the Top 10 is fun cars and pickups. The bottom 10 is Volvos, and Teslas. Every year, theft deterrence is improved. Every year, more cars get stolen.

The key to reducing theft is not deterrence, it is consequences. The old adage of "Fool around and Find Out..." is uniquely American, and trial tested.

Theft deterrence, much like Communism, has failed whenver attempted. It's all "detergent psychology." If detergent won't get your clothes clean...try more detergent.

Now if you are looking for something to keep the neighbor kids from joy riding in your Bronco, that's a different story. Maybe an ignition key is a good idea. But door locks on a vehicle with glass windows is just moronic.

 

[hyghlndr]

Only two really come to mind other than tech that looks outdated too quick.

Progressive rate springs for street driven Broncos.

Rear disc brakes and PIA emergency brake setup

 

[hyghlndr]

2.5 inch suspension and Bilsteins. Like Broncobowsher said of his mod, this took the fun driving out of the picture. All I do is roll, pitch, and yaw my way across the landscape. Feels like driving a boat on choppy water.

Depends on the brand, did you have progressive rate front springs?

 

[Oldtimer]

James,
I have 8 of the 50, and 3 honorable mentions.
I will park around the corner next time I come visit you.

 

[Hallboss]

It was done by the PO, but I would never install a 5.5" lift with 35" tires in an EB if not a serious show or off-road rig. I've been spending time/money for the last year correcting suspension, pinion angles front and rear, brakes... etc, etc. It looks cool though.. IMO!!! lol

 

[Yeller]

It was done by the PO, but I would never install a 5.5" lift with 35" tires in an EB if not a serious show or off-road rig. I've been spending time/money for the last year correcting suspension, pinion angles front and rear, brakes... etc, etc. It looks cool though.. IMO!!! lol

Wouldn’t want a 5.5” lift for any reason unless it just makes you smile looking at it. Just too tall, even for 40” tires. Feel the same about a 3.5” with a 2” body lift.