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Brake Question

Torkman66

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I have installed an entire new brake system from the peddle to the four disc brakes and everything in between. Bench bled MS and then bled each wheel until no bubbles. Peddle was nice and firm by the end of the bleeding process. But when I start the truck (booster now in play), peddle goes down nearly to the floor. Thoughts? More bleeding?

Also noticed that the calipers have an upper and lower bleed screw. I just bleed from the upper. Do I need to bleed from both bleed valves?
 
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DirtDonk

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We have to see pictures of the calipers. I don’t know any with double bleeders, other than aftermarket. And I haven’t seen many of those.
And I’ve never used one. So don’t know all the ins and outs.
What are you using specifically?
And your description of the action of the pedal is common of a power assist system. When the engine is off, all you are pushing against is the booster resistance.
You’d have to apply massive amounts of pressure to be pushing against anything else except when you are bleeding. Sounds like it’s bled sufficiently, but something is either moving drastically, or the distance between the booster rod and master cylinder piston is too great.

Didn’t we talk about your setup this recently? Or is that someone else I’m thinking of?
If you discussed this in another thread, don’t start a new one. Keep the old one going. If this is the first time we’ve discussed it, give us more details.
What kind of Booster?
What kind of master cylinder?
What kind of calipers?
And what did you do to replace the pedal? And why?
 
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Torkman66

Torkman66

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Never discussed before. I’m sure the double bleeders top and bottom are just so the calipers can be used on either side. I’ve done a lot of brakes over the years and understand the mechanics of a power booster that uses engine vac to provide brake force to MS. Just never had a case where the brake is nice and firm with only a 2” press after bleeding and then when truck running (booster now has vac) the peddle goes 5 inches and nearly to the floor. I’m going to go out and re-bleed everything today. I’ll use a vacuum pump this time. I’ll see if maybe there is some trapped air. If that’s not it then I’m stumped.
This is what I have. All from WH.


IMG_9072.png
 
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DirtDonk

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Waiting for some clarification about the bleeding process (if different than normal that is) with the newer style calipers we use. As said, I have personally never bled calipers with two bleeders, but your assumption that you only need to do the upper sounds very reasonable. Valid reasoning, but when in doubt, I would do all four anyway. At least in a cursory manner, to make sure that there is not an air pocket hiding in a dark corner.
And how are the rear brakes? Are the pads up tight against the rotors? Do you have the parking brake mechanism hooked up? If so, apply it a few clicks just to see if the main pedal tightens up a bit. Lots of slop can come from the rear brakes.

But what about "feel" when pushing the pedal with the engine on? When it gets to the bottom, is it firm? Or does it start spongy, and then work it's way to the bottom?
If it's spongy, then there is either something flexing terribly, or there is still air in the system.
If it goes hard and the brakes are working, then there is something with the linkage that is not right. Even if we assembled it before shipping, I would still test that theory.
Maybe pull the master forward enough to see if the booster rod is adjusted far enough out to touch the piston. The flexible lines should allow this easily hopefully.
But check the rear brakes too, if you have not already.

I could be wrong about this next thing, but if your measurement is correct, that 2 inches of pedal travel with the engine off sounds excessive to me. Sorry, not excessive necessarily, but more than normal.
Usually with the engine off, you don’t even get a half an inch to maybe an inch, until it's rock hard with nowhere to go. And with a 6 to 1 pedal ratio or whatever it is, whatever you see initially is multiplied six-fold after after that.

And last but not least, did you follow the video, or any paper instructions that might have been with the kit?
Just checking!

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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By video, I mean this one by CPP we have a link to:
It's for adjusting the rear brake calipers during setup. Not doing this could lead to a long pedal travel. As long as yours? Not sure...
Mostly it's about the parking brake of course, but during the initial setup it can greatly effect main pedal travel.

Hmm, I'm not seeing it on our pages. I'll have to see if it's supposed to be there, or if I'm just blind.

Paul
 
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Torkman66

Torkman66

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Couple updates. @DirtDonk you always go above and beyond to dig in and help. You are a major reason this group is so amazing. Thank you!!

So I watched the video above…I absolutely think that is the issue. While I ran out of time today to work on the rear park brake as video outlines, I can say that with all four wheels off the ground and brakes applied, the front brakes are tightly stopped but rear brakes can still be turned with some mild force. Also, my parking brake does not work very well even though cable is adjusted. So, I’m sure it is the adjustment at the calipers as outlined in video. I’ll let you all know tomorrow.
 
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DirtDonk

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Don’t know about everybody else, but I’m sure crossing my fingers over here!
 

Brush Hog

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I don’t have rear discs but don’t they require some fiddling with the proporting valve to get the desired braking front to rear?
 
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Torkman66

Torkman66

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That is normally an issue with disc in front drums in back. Going out now to work on adjusting the parking brake, Confident that is the problem. More to follow.
 

DirtDonk

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Because I am a “don’t get your hopes up too quick, too early” kind of guy, I’ll just hold out for “it’s at least part of the problem” and hope for the best.
Hope for the best, but plan for the mediocre! :)

But still cross your fingers for the best outcome!
 

DirtDonk

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I don’t have rear discs but don’t they require some fiddling with the proporting valve to get the desired braking front to rear?
It’s all about balance. Meaning sizing of the master cylinder, piston, sizing of the caliper, piston, and size of the rotor and size of the pad, and all of that. Bias of the prop proportioning valve is important as well.
We start mixing and matching parts, it’s up to us to try to mix and match the best balance of components we can. Including a proper proportioning valve if available.
But there’s just no fiddling with a proportioning valve in unless it’s the adjustable kind.

And to be clear, unless I have my information incorrect, the actual proportion valve part of the proportion/combination valve is only there to stop the spikes of a sudden hard push on the brake pedal.
It’s not an overall reduction in pressure to the rear, or an overall limiter to the rear. Just a sudden burst limiter.
If that’s the proper way of phrasing it.
While a combination valve is a super convenient and compact way of getting all of the functions that a brake system needs, because of all this mixing and matching parts that we do, I still like the adjustable ones.
 
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Torkman66

Torkman66

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Removed rear wheels. Used video to adjust parking brake. Pedal nice and firm with engine off. Start truck, peddle nice and firm! This 100% solved the low peddle problem. @DirtDonk , I owe you a cold one. First short drive after total resto. Not done yet, but she is road worthy.
 

DirtDonk

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And give the credit to Matt at WH this time. He got back to me real quick with the link to the video. I’m hoping that it’ll be linked up on the website soon if CPP doesn’t mind. I think we had it before, but not sure what happened.
 
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