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Dart block Windsor, alloy heads, hitting firewall

Mistral

Contributor
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
8
Hiya, I've got a 75 Bronco, fitting a Dart block 363 Windsor with alloy heads, and am up against the firewall with the alloy head.
Anyone been down this route before?
Are there any low engine mounts available?
Thanks, I'm in New Zealand, and there's about 15 early Bronco's in the whole Country, so info is scarce.

Also, can you please stop sending all the people unhappy about your election result to NZ, we've got enough Muppets here already?
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,960
It's not exactly common, but it does happen. Been awhile since I've seen it, but there are a few things to look at/do/ponder.
First, is this a tall deck block by any chance? Not sure if that's a thing, but if it is, you may have to do even more work.
Are the heads anything unusual, such as having tall rails around the rocker galley? Just wondering if there is something causing more interference than normal.
And finally, which valve/rocker covers are you using?
If you've got any measurements to share, please do so. I do not know what they should be, or what you should be looking for, or from where to measure. But if you can post up some dimensions with a description of where you're measuring, this might help.

The taller engine theory aside, a 351 is taller to begin with anyway. And back in the dark ages we would sometimes have trouble with a Windsor in the spot where the 289/302 sat.
Some people do end up cutting the firewall, but I don't think that was the main solution.
You can loosen all 8 body mounts and see if you can shift the body rearward by enough.
I am not aware of any shorter Ford engine mounts for this family of engines. Or for any other older Ford engine family for that matter. Only taller ones!

There really is not much room to move the engine down, OR forward in a Bronco. And rearward is a non-starter in your case obviously. So moving the body back might be the only non-invasive solution at this point.
I've heard of using hammers, or cutting the body. A body lift might, or probably won't help. But what do you think about it going up? Would that be any help at all.

Got pics of the offending appendage? I see you're a contributor, so by all means post up some pics. Besides, even if it doesn't help your dilemma, we still like pics! Especially of new-to-us Broncos in different time zones. ;)

Paul
 

SteveL

Huge chevy guy
Joined
Jun 24, 2001
Messages
11,776
Loc.
Hawthorne ca
When I swapped the 6cyl for a 351w on the 66 I barely hit the fireworks driver side. Sliding the body back like Paul said probably would've worked but I went for the instant gratification of the little sledgehammer. A couple taps and it fits fine
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,524
Typically what you can do to get the engine in...
Remove the engine mounts. (you will put them back on later)
install the engine, mate to transmission, get transmission crossmember installed.
Now you can lift the engine enough to slip the engine mounts in.

There are a few clearance issues during install of the larger engines where it looks like they won't fit. The angle of the dangle, getting stuff to fit around other stuff, etc. The motor mounts hang up. It is a head scratcher. But once you get the engine in the right place and the right angle it all fits. And there is room to slip the engine mount in at that time.

If you are converting from an I6 to a V8, the perches on the frame need to be replaced. They are different.


I have a co-worker that sold a Titan that was shipped to New Zealand. One of the only ones over there.
 

JB Fab

Sponsor/Vendor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
1,307
We had the same issue with our Dart 427W/ Dart heads. Found that the aftermarket 'extreme' motor mounts sit taller than the stock type..
Between a bit of body lift and cutting /welding the valve cover on the the drivers side, it ended up working
IMG_9969 (2022_04_15 02_30_09 UTC).jpg
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,960
I forgot to ask about the transmission.
Did you modify the transmission location in any way? Or transmission type?
You may be able to raise the transmission slightly to tilt the engine forward. If you’re running a bigger transmission, you may have to modify the tunnel, or add more body lift.
If it’s only hitting the firewall by a small amount, you only have to lift the transmission end by a small amount. But it is definitely a thing.
If you don’t have your transmission installed, then you’re not ready to determine that the engine is hitting. If it’s fully assembled, see if you can jack up at the rear end at all.

What transmission are you using?
 

Bajabrewer

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,541
When I dropped the body on the frame with the 351w, Trans, Transfer case already in the frame I didn't have enough room to drop the body bolts through the frame holes. I loosened up the motor mounts, & crossmember bolts & used a ratchet strap to slide it forward & I got enough movement so the head doesn't touch the firewall. May not be enough in your case but that's what worked for me.
 

pcf_mark

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
3,633
We had the same issue with our Dart 427W/ Dart heads. Found that the aftermarket 'extreme' motor mounts sit taller than the stock type..
Between a bit of body lift and cutting /welding the valve cover on the the drivers side, it ended up working View attachment 935687
Mind blown. Is that a legacy Bank blow through carb set up but fitted to a Holley Sniper?
 

kman67

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Messages
115
Loc.
Aptos
Double check your rear crossmember to frame mounts. Make sure they are in the up position. If they are flipped to the down position, the engine will be tilted back. Don’t ask me how I know.
ec93ba0e804656747859d85ba0c72ec6.jpg

260fd9838c53feeb3ff1f41a7383dd9f.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
M

Mistral

Contributor
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
8
I forgot to ask about the transmission.
Did you modify the transmission location in any way? Or transmission type?
You may be able to raise the transmission slightly to tilt the engine forward. If you’re running a bigger transmission, you may have to modify the tunnel, or add more body lift.
If it’s only hitting the firewall by a small amount, you only have to lift the transmission end by a small amount. But it is definitely a thing.
If you don’t have your transmission installed, then you’re not ready to determine that the engine is hitting. If it’s fully assembled, see if you can jack up at the rear end at all.

What transmission are you using?
C4 trans. In stock position.
 
OP
OP
M

Mistral

Contributor
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
8
It's not exactly common, but it does happen. Been awhile since I've seen it, but there are a few things to look at/do/ponder.
First, is this a tall deck block by any chance? Not sure if that's a thing, but if it is, you may have to do even more work.
Are the heads anything unusual, such as having tall rails around the rocker galley? Just wondering if there is something causing more interference than normal.
And finally, which valve/rocker covers are you using?
If you've got any measurements to share, please do so. I do not know what they should be, or what you should be looking for, or from where to measure. But if you can post up some dimensions with a description of where you're measuring, this might help.

The taller engine theory aside, a 351 is taller to begin with anyway. And back in the dark ages we would sometimes have trouble with a Windsor in the spot where the 289/302 sat.
Some people do end up cutting the firewall, but I don't think that was the main solution.
You can loosen all 8 body mounts and see if you can shift the body rearward by enough.
I am not aware of any shorter Ford engine mounts for this family of engines. Or for any other older Ford engine family for that matter. Only taller ones!

There really is not much room to move the engine down, OR forward in a Bronco. And rearward is a non-starter in your case obviously. So moving the body back might be the only non-invasive solution at this point.
I've heard of using hammers, or cutting the body. A body lift might, or probably won't help. But what do you think about it going up? Would that be any help at all.

Got pics of the offending appendage? I see you're a contributor, so by all means post up some pics. Besides, even if it doesn't help your dilemma, we still like pics! Especially of new-to-us Broncos in different time zones. ;)

Paul
Thanks DD, the Dart block is the same height, I think it's the Edelbrock alloy heads causing the issue. The 302 that came out with cast iron heads didn't touch the firewall.
I'll check a few things & maybe come back to y'all.
 

spap

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
2,587
We had the same issue with our Dart 427W/ Dart heads. Found that the aftermarket 'extreme' motor mounts sit taller than the stock type..
Between a bit of body lift and cutting /welding the valve cover on the the drivers side, it ended up working View attachment 935687
Bro !!!
 

Madgyver

Contributor
Bronco Madman
Joined
Jul 30, 2001
Messages
14,891
I cut the firewall for big C heads on my 393W.
 

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DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,960
Nice! I didn’t know you were running Cleavor in one of your Broncos.
Hadn’t heard of that intake before either. Gonna have to look them up.
 
OP
OP
M

Mistral

Contributor
Joined
Dec 16, 2022
Messages
8
Hey thanks for all the input, we'll try & get a bit out of moving the body back.
Hopefully that'll do it.
 

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nvrstuk

Contributor
Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
9,345
Hiya, I've got a 75 Bronco, fitting a Dart block 363 Windsor with alloy heads, and am up against the firewall with the alloy head.
Anyone been down this route before?
Are there any low engine mounts available?
Thanks, I'm in New Zealand, and there's about 15 early Bronco's in the whole Country, so info is scarce.

Also, can you please stop sending all the people unhappy about your election result to NZ, we've got enough Muppets here already?
First, Welcome.

Notch the firewall for clearance. It's worth it. I've helped stuff a few different strokers in with Dart, World Products, Ford Racing blocks with a variety of heads. Some hit, some don't. Doesn't seem to be any real rhyme or reason as to which ones do and which don't but I think it might have as much to do with the body placement, Ford's "fantastic" QC and of course drivetrain angle to help with ujoint angles. Course, I don't install anything anymore that's stock so tranny height affects head/firewall clearance.

I'd like to ask where in NZ are you? I PM'd ya
 

Madgyver

Contributor
Bronco Madman
Joined
Jul 30, 2001
Messages
14,891
Hey thanks for all the input, we'll try & get a bit out of moving the body back.
Hopefully that'll do it.
Move the body back and you'll have radiator and fan clearance issues.
 
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