3G alt. with external regulator?

[73azbronco]

I disagree, I have gone through three optimas in 8 years, using the $200 optima charger, because the batteries are not built the way they were 50 years ago.

Now, the battery in bmw I had, lasted 7 years, and it does have the fancy regulator that even knows how old the battery is, and must be reset when i new one is installed. I attribute that to a bmw battery being built far better than most other batteries, and not so much to the charging system. Those bmw regulators are mostly for fuel efficiency, as it knows how old a battery is, what charge state, and what charge it should be given to improve mpg.

 

[ntsqd]

You can disagree all you want, but the tide of info out there, just in the RV world, about the proper charging lead-acid batteries will bury your disagreement. You don't have to like what I want to do, you can just leave it alone.

Early Optimas were a decent product that was skillfully advertised. Later Optimas aren't either of those things. They are not and never were the high water mark in lead-acid batteries. Deka and Rolls likely can claim that title.

 

[Steve83]

...where did you source the brush holder from?

Why wouldn't you use the normal 2G/3G brush holder? It's common as dirt, and it fits the space & the commutator. If you don't want to use the VR that the brush holder mounts to, just take out the 2 screws and transfer the holder to a common fiberglass board (like a PC board, but without any traces) cut to the shape of the VR so it screws down the same way, and holds the brushes in the exact same location inside the alternator.

... I have gone through three optimas in 8 years...because the batteries are not built the way they were 50 years ago.

Optimas weren't built 50 years ago.

...must be reset when i new one is installed. I attribute that to a bmw battery being built far better than most other batteries, and not so much to the charging system.

It's neither, and BMW doesn't build batteries, any more than Ford does. All automakers spec batteries, and buy from anyone who can meet those specs in the quantity needed. The PCM-managed charging has a reset function to make aftermarket & independent (or owner) replacement harder - it's strictly a marketing SCAM to help the dealerships stay in business.

...the tide of info out there...

Volume isn't a measure of accuracy.

...Optimas were a decent product...

I don't think so. They were & still are really just a gimmick in search of a customer.

...that was skillfully advertised. Later Optimas aren't either of those things. They are not and never were the high water mark in lead-acid batteries.

I can agree with that.

 

[73azbronco]

Optimas weren't built 50 years ago.

It's neither, and BMW doesn't build batteries, any more than Ford does. All automakers spec batteries, and buy from anyone who can meet those specs in the quantity needed. The PCM-managed charging has a reset function to make aftermarket & independent (or owner) replacement harder - it's strictly a marketing SCAM to help the dealerships stay in business.

Steve I am not following, I didnt mean optimas were built 50 years ago, I said batteries, in general.

And while BMW itself does not manufacture a battery, they also don't make paint, and plastic, but they do brand it as theirs when they sell them. So it is a bmw battery

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bm...ZeZpV3OEoYVp_ZoGizAfzfHiqAKWKmeBoC0wgQAvD_BwE

 

[ntsqd]

Why wouldn't you use the normal 2G/3G brush holder? It's common as dirt, and it fits the space & the commutator. If you don't want to use the VR that the brush holder mounts to, just take out the 2 screws and transfer the holder to a common fiberglass board (like a PC board, but without any traces) cut to the shape of the VR so it screws down the same way, and holds the brushes in the exact same location inside the alternator.

Optimas weren't built 50 years ago.

It's neither, and BMW doesn't build batteries, any more than Ford does. All automakers spec batteries, and buy from anyone who can meet those specs in the quantity needed. The PCM-managed charging has a reset function to make aftermarket & independent (or owner) replacement harder - it's strictly a marketing SCAM to help the dealerships stay in business.

Volume isn't a measure of accuracy.

I don't think so. They were & still are really just a gimmick in search of a customer.

I can agree with that.

Using an existing VR/brush-holder was proposed by my local alternator guy and was an option that I had considered prior to his suggestion. As a rule I do not like to take hacked parts into the remote areas where I go, but if I feel that the result is robust enough I will do it. It is my next step in this thread's actual topic.

When the volume of info available from many sources on a topic is almost all in agreement, and the various equipment mfg's all produce product that conforms to that info, then it is reasonable to proceed with it as being accurate. One need only look at the premium battery mfg pages for their suggested charging profiles to confirm this aspect.

I had some stellar results from early Optimas. Hard to argue that they weren't decent when the experiential evidence says they are (were).

 

[OX1]

For me, nothing I own with a 3G is a daily driver. I get 7-15 years on batteries that are limited use (including the 4 "classics"
I have with 3G's), as long as a quality tender maintains the battery.

My DD's are newer, with 2017 being the oldest. I get 5 years on average with them, but they already have
pretty extensive factory charging control strategies, that I have not been inclined to mess with (especially with them being under
extended warrantees).

 

[EPB72]

F794BNC - Voltage Regulator Brush Holder Assembly, Converts A-Circuit Systems to Externally Regulated B-System, For Ford 3G Series IR/IF Alternators

1 in stock at our warehouse. Regulator / Brush Holder Conversion Adapter 12 Volt, Converts Internal Regulator Systems to Externally Regulated B-System For Ford 3G Series Alternators (regulator not included)

store.alternatorparts.com

 

[ntsqd]

F794BNC - Voltage Regulator Brush Holder Assembly, Converts A-Circuit Systems to Externally Regulated B-System, For Ford 3G Series IR/IF Alternators

1 in stock at our warehouse. Regulator / Brush Holder Conversion Adapter 12 Volt, Converts Internal Regulator Systems to Externally Regulated B-System For Ford 3G Series Alternators (regulator not included)

store.alternatorparts.com

I linked that somewhere above. He doesn't have any, nor know what the price will be when he does get some inventory some time next year.

What I'm seeing from sampling many forums is that the so-called "Smart Alternators" are definitely kinder to the battery than previous parts were.

The pic below makes it look very simple to insert external control, simply don't hook up the small connector and install eyelet terminated wires to connect to the external regulator:

Just need to remove some of the isolating plastic surrounding the B+ & Field screws while being careful to not allow contact with the bearing boss in the case.

Some light reading for the unconvinced: https://balmar.net/balmar-technology/ If you research Balmar you'll find them to be a Standard in the marine battery charging realm.

 

[Broncobowsher]

You could always carry a spare 3G regulator and a few bits of wire needed to make it run in the spares. This would get you backup charging but not your fancy aftermarket regulator.

I'll also go with nothing fancy should be needed. I've been running Northstar/Odessey AGM for 15 years or so. Daily drivers, project cars, boat. The boat is the only one I will say died an early death, but that was from lack of use and not maintaining a charge in it during storage.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I linked that somewhere above. He doesn't have any, nor know what the price will be when he does get some inventory some time next year.

What I'm seeing from sampling many forums is that the so-called "Smart Alternators" are definitely kinder to the battery than previous parts were.

The pic below makes it look very simple to insert external control, simply don't hook up the small connector and install eyelet terminated wires to connect to the external regulator:

Just need to remove some of the isolating plastic surrounding the B+ & Field screws while being careful to not allow contact with the bearing boss in the case.

Some light reading for the unconvinced: https://balmar.net/balmar-technology/ If you research Balmar you'll find them to be a Standard in the marine battery charging realm.

Looking at that regulator, it is negative control. So simple now that I see it.
Jump the field to ground. Bypass the internal regulation.
B+ goes to the fancy regulator. Variable positive voltage to drive the output levels.
Don't plug anything into the internal regulator connection on the alternator.

 

[ntsqd]

Exactly what I was thinking, specifically about leaving the OEM regulator in place, but disconnected. If I make those two connections for external regulation thru a single connector, then reverting to stock is as simple as unplug 'my' connector and plug in the OEM regulator's connector. A simple plug adhesive lined heat-shrunk onto the OEM connector should keep it clear of junk and corrosion. Same with a repair pigtail in the OEM regulator.

 

[ntsqd]

ARS-5's install manual:

https://balmar.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/SUP-0203-ARS-5-Installation-Operation-Manual-For-Review.pdf.pdf

 

[73azbronco]

I'm wondering if you look at vehicles like a bmw and see what their alternators look like. I'm pretty sure it is self contained and no off alt equipment.

 

[Steve83]

...I do not like to take hacked parts...

Don't hack anything. Remove the brush holder from the VR the way it's designed to be removed, and then mount it back to the 3G the way it's designed to be mounted, except instead of mounting it to a VR, you'd mount it with a custom-carved FG board shaped like the baseplate of the VR. The 2 bolts that mount the brush holder are also its electrical terminals, making it very easy to attach whatever electrical connector you choose. That also lets you choose which brush is grounded or powered, and which is regulated.

Amazon.com

 

[ntsqd]

Their alt's are likely to be Bosch. In the days when I used one off a Jetta on my '67 Ranchero they were good products. I really liked the easy brush replacement of that unit.
No idea what they make now. Doesn't matter, they don't have the ability to set the voltage where the battery mfg wants it to be. Nor are they likely to have 3 stage charging, as the mfg wants for best battery service. To be fair, the ARS-5 doesn't appear to have an easy voltage setting adjustment either, just different charge profiles for different battery types. I've an email in asking about Odyssey's 14.7 VDC requirement specifically. EDIT: It does have this adjustment, but getting there doesn't look simple.

I suppose if I were building a SEMA truck or a Show Truck or just a "Cars & Coffee" truck that I might care about the VR being integral to the alternator. I'm not and I don't. The singular only advantage that I can see to a VR mounted on the alt. is that it will be subjected to the same temperature that the alt is. Assuming that the VR has the circuitry (& code?) then it might offer some temperature compensation. To get that from a remote mounted VR (like the ARS-5) a temperature sensor is needed. They also offer battery temperature compensation via a second temperature sensor.

To be blunt, I really don't care if this solution is employed by anyone else. There are lots of reasons why very few might even consider it. I want to explore it and see if it works as advertised. Unfortunately the OEM VR appears to have cost me a Group 65 Odyssey battery, which I'll need to buy another of if this test is going to be fair.

 

[EPB72]

Their alt's are likely to be Bosch. In the days when I used one off a Jetta on my '67 Ranchero they were good products. I really liked the easy brush replacement of that unit.
No idea what they make now. Doesn't matter, they don't have the ability to set the voltage where the battery mfg wants it to be. Nor are they likely to have 3 stage charging, as the mfg wants for best battery service. To be fair, the ARS-5 doesn't appear to have an easy voltage setting adjustment either, just different charge profiles for different battery types. I've an email in asking about Odyssey's 14.7 VDC requirement specifically. EDIT: It does have this adjustment, but getting there doesn't look simple.

I suppose if I were building a SEMA truck or a Show Truck or just a "Cars & Coffee" truck that I might care about the VR being integral to the alternator. I'm not and I don't. The singular only advantage that I can see to a VR mounted on the alt. is that it will be subjected to the same temperature that the alt is. Assuming that the VR has the circuitry (& code?) then it might offer some temperature compensation. To get that from a remote mounted VR (like the ARS-5) a temperature sensor is needed. They also offer battery temperature compensation via a second temperature sensor.

To be blunt, I really don't care if this solution is employed by anyone else. There are lots of reasons why very few might even consider it. I want to explore it and see if it works as advertised. Unfortunately the OEM VR appears to have cost me a Group 65 Odyssey battery, which I'll need to buy another of if this test is going to be fair.

So for the odessy battery as a starter battery ther rec is 14.2 -14.6v across battery post vrhicle charging, with variuos loads on and off maintain that range for the most part good to go..no ramp rate change...[may in long run damage/shorten battery life}Now charging a battery with charger no loads in system .there rec is 14.7v hopfully using a charger that fallows a AGM charging profile for hopefully maintain battery life.... odessy/AGM also wants a battery voltage to be at or above 12.2v meaning at 50 percent SOC, charge battery.. Curious how this regulator works out.. as for the BMW and others there more to the starting and charging systems,,, With battery managment systems, alternators PCM controlled based on data from variuos other modules,, I mention starting system, Why well with auto start/ stop that complicate the charging/starting system ,more common to find an Aux battery as well........... curious whats the SOC of the bad battery now . if its to low to charge take a second battery fully charged and connect to dead battery POS to POS,NEG to NEG and if voltage is ok then charge both together to see if dead battery will recover..

 

[ntsqd]

It still starts the truck, but sometimes the starter completely stalls before resuming. No changes have been made to the engine or any of it's pereferral parts. Starter is a Bosch that is only a couple of years old. Cables were all replaced with custom 1/0 Carolprene welding cable. I need to do a load test on it, but based on what it's doing I suspect that it has lost a lot off of it's official rating.

 

[EPB72]

It still starts the truck, but sometimes the starter completely stalls before resuming. No changes have been made to the engine or any of it's pereferral parts. Starter is a Bosch that is only a couple of years old. Cables were all replaced with custom 1/0 Carolprene welding cable. I need to do a load test on it, but based on what it's doing I suspect that it has lost a lot off of it's official rating.

Yeah load test would be good. I use my lab scope to do starting test at times and as an example a 2008 Honda civic 4 cyl on a good test the initial induction of the starter can draw about 1600 amps granted it’s about 1 millisecond but I don’t think a lot of people know that,

 

[ntsqd]

Nothing so sophisticated for my testing. Just a Autometer SB 300. In-rush currents in motors are always huge compared to their rated power consumption.

 

[ntsqd]

UPDATE:
Got to test the battery last weekend. Results are interesting. I'd driven the truck on an errand that included ~10 fwy miles, parked it, and after sitting for 35-40 minutes I tested the battery. 88% charged, 905 CA against a 950 CCA rating. If 900 CA can't get a 240k miles old, stock CR 351W spinning in warm weather there's something wrong. Which, given the random cold start stalls, there likely is. Need to closely examine all of the battery cables and the starter. And have a look at the wire between the alternator and the battery selector switch. I suspect that I'll be needing to make a new one of those.
It's that 88% part that concerns me. I'd just driven it far enough at cruise speed that it should have been more recovered than that.

Also, my tester isn't the SB300, it's a BVA300. Not sure that it matters, but....

In the meantime I have a cheap regulator and regulator connector plug coming that I'll use to seal up both sides of the stock wiring. Unless I find that I can easily modify the new regulator to just pass thru the 12+VDC and not be connected to the FLD terminal at all.