1310 pinion yoke. Long vs short?

[Bustedbroc]

Replacing my third member with this Speedmaster diff in 4.11:

Ford 9 in. 28 Spline LSD TorqueWorm® Nodular Iron Third Member Assembly

SpecsBrand:PCEPart Number:PCE215.2100Part Type:Third Member Complete Assembly Case Style:Ford 9"Case Material:Nodular IronMain Cap Material:SteelMain Cap Retention Style:Thru BoltCarrier Bearing Diameter (in):3.006 in.Pinion Support Bolt Quantity:5Standard Pinion Location:YesRing Gear Load...

www.speedmaster79.com

1974 EB, stock with A5Q 4.11 axle.

They are supplying me with a 1310 yoke but it is of the LONG flavor. (4' vs 5" front to rear). Is that going to be an issue?
Their 3rd member uses a Daytona pinion support. According to Speedmaster, a 1310 long is required due to the Daytona pinion support. The only thing I can figure is that it will shorten and change the angle of my driveshaft slightly. FYI, stock height EB. The rear driveshaft is missing the double Cardan joint by the transfer case. That is the way it was when purchased and from what I have read it is not uncommon for this to be done over the years. I found this out after I went ahead and replaced all the drive U-joints this past winter. This EB will not see any real off roading, primarily for cruises and ice cream runs with the wife.

 

[DirtDonk]

Can’t say for sure. How much of the slip yoke shaft do you still have available engagement with? That might make the difference.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard that Daytona pinion support requires a different yoke. Maybe it just never got mentioned before, and just was done as a matter, of course. And probably a lot of those were replacing the driveshaft anyway, so different lengths didn’t matter.
And with your stated use, why the trouble (and expense) of making it a limitedslip differential, with only 28 spline axles?

Maybe it’ll be fine. In the old days that was a recipe for broken axle shafts. But most of those were seeing some off-road action. At least it’s not running big tires and a Detroit locker!

But if you decide you need all that, and it does have to come with the long yoke, then the new u-joints would be the least of your expenditure worries.
Chances are it’ll work. But if not, you’ll either get a new driveshaft of the correct length, or shorten the existing one.
Then again, that could also be the same time you change back to a double cardan type!
The snowball continues to roll down the rabbit hole!

 

[Bustedbroc]

Can’t say for sure. How much of the slip yoke shaft do you still have available engagement with? That might make the difference.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard that Daytona pinion support requires a different yoke. Maybe it just never got mentioned before, and just was done as a matter, of course. And probably a lot of those were replacing the driveshaft anyway, so different lengths didn’t matter.
And with your stated use, why the trouble (and expense) of making it a limitedslip differential, with only 28 spline axles?

Maybe it’ll be fine. In the old days that was a recipe for broken axle shafts. But most of those were seeing some off-road action. At least it’s not running big tires and a Detroit locker!

But if you decide you need all that, and it does have to come with the long yoke, then the new u-joints would be the least of your expenditure worries.
Chances are it’ll work. But if not, you’ll either get a new driveshaft of the correct length, or shorten the existing one.
Then again, that could also be the same time you change back to a double cardan type!
The snowball continues to roll down the rabbit hole!

DD, I guess I neglected to say the diff that I am replacing is the factory limited slip that has water damage/pitting and is noisy as hell. I am of the mind set that the truck was born with a limited slip and I would like to replace it with like at a reasonable cost from a reliable vendor. I am now thinking that this particular vendor only has the 1310 long yoke to offer me as normally they come with a 1350 yoke. I do see short 1310 yokes on the web for sale that are noted that they will work with either style pinion supports while others state they will not work with the Daytona style. I could go with their standard 1350 yoke and replace my already new Ujoint with a 1310/150 type (added expense) and straps (added expense).
Looks like I am going to cancel my order and re-think this. As probably a lot of folks on this forum I am beyond my expected budget with this 4 wheel can of worms.
As always I appreciated the input.

 

[DirtDonk]

Lots of differential experts here though, so maybe one of them can give you the insight.
I don’t think we know that it’s definitely a problem yet. Just that I posted up about potential problems.
Maybe it just comes down to how compressed your driveshaft slip yoke is already.

 

[Bustedbroc]

Lots of differential experts here though, so maybe one of them can give you the insight.
I don’t think we know that it’s definitely a problem yet. Just that I posted up about potential problems.
Maybe it just comes down to how compressed your driveshaft slip yoke is already.

YUP, NP. I'm not taking any chances. Ordered a third member from Speedway. Within my budget, short 1310 yoke, and drop in replacement.

 

[jamesroney]

Lots of differential experts here though, so maybe one of them can give you the insight.
I don’t think we know that it’s definitely a problem yet. Just that I posted up about potential problems.
Maybe it just comes down to how compressed your driveshaft slip yoke is already.

A long yoke vs short yoke has nothing to do with the length of the pinion bearing counter-bore. (Which happens to be long and short).

Daytona pinion supports use a larger outer pinion bearing, which necessitates a shorter yoke spline relief.

Aftermarket yokes may or may not have this feature.

I will never understand why a stock Bronco needs a Daytona Pinion Upgrade, or a crush sleeve eliminator... But I will admit I’ve done it.

 

[DirtDonk]

Maybe that's what they were referring to, but I automatically thought of the length of the exposed part, from the slinger/shield to the u-joint retainers.
I had a 3rd member from a T-bird with 3.0 something gears, that had a pinion snubber and a yoke that was much more extended than the Bronco type.
I never had it apart to view the inside, but since it wasn't a Daytona pinion support type anyway, that aspect may not have changed. But the distance from the chunk casting to the u-joint was quite a bit more.

Paul

 

[Bustedbroc]

From Currie.................

1310 long vs short - Google Search

 

[jamesroney]

Maybe that's what they were referring to, but I automatically thought of the length of the exposed part, from the slinger/shield to the u-joint retainers.
I had a 3rd member from a T-bird with 3.0 something gears, that had a pinion snubber and a yoke that was much more extended than the Bronco type.
I never had it apart to view the inside, but since it wasn't a Daytona pinion support type anyway, that aspect may not have changed. But the distance from the chunk casting to the u-joint was quite a bit more.

Paul

Yes, you were thinking correctly. Long vs short usually the length of the exposed part. The Currie video from the link by @Bustedbroc shows that, but is silent on the Daytona difference.

And I thought we were talking about the difference between Daytona yokes, and standard yokes. (...and I've never seen a factory short 1310 Daytona yoke) Not sure what it would have come in.

Plenty of aftermarket Daytona yokes out there, and plenty of factory 1330 Daytona yokes.

 

[Bustedbroc]

Yes, you were thinking correctly. Long vs short usually the length of the exposed part. The Currie video from the link by @Bustedbroc shows that, but is silent on the Daytona difference.

And I thought we were talking about the difference between Daytona yokes, and standard yokes. (...and I've never seen a factory short 1310 Daytona yoke) Not sure what it would have come in.

Plenty of aftermarket Daytona yokes out there, and plenty of factory 1330 Daytona yokes.

James and DD, this is what I found in my search for a drop in 3rd member.........

1310 short pinion yoke, "Features a machined relief cut to clear standard and Daytona pinion supports". (some I have found do not support Daytona)

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-9-Inch-1310-Series-Short-Small-Pinion-Yoke-28-Spline,1285.html

Drop in 3rd member I ordered. It happens to have both a Daytona pinion and short yoke. FYI, Daytona pinion support was not a personal requirement. It just happened to be on what I thought was the best bang for my buck.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-9-Inch-Clutch-Style-Posi-Differential-Third-Members,352886.html?sku=91049345-28-411

"The pinion gear is connected to our new, forged steel “Ford short”, 1310-type pinion yoke"

 

[jamesroney]

James and DD, this is what I found in my search for a drop in 3rd member.........

1310 short pinion yoke, "Features a machined relief cut to clear standard and Daytona pinion supports". (some I have found do not support Daytona)

http://[URL][URL]https://www.speedw...s-Short-Small-Pinion-Yoke-28-Spline,1285.html

[/URL][/URL]

Drop in 3rd member I ordered. It happens to have both a Daytona pinion and short yoke. FYI, Daytona pinion support was not a personal requirement. It just happened to be on what I thought was the best bang for my buck.

http://[URL][URL]https://www.speedw...Third-Members,352886.html?sku=91049345-28-411

[/URL][/URL]
"The pinion gear is connected to our new, forged steel “Ford short”, 1310-type pinion yoke"

You are missing my point, but it doesn't matter. You already ordered the Speedway unit, and it will be just fine for your application.

Just in case someone else stumbles this thread, the point is that the distance from the pinion bearing face to the end of the pinion retaining nut threads is DIFFERENT for the standard vs Daytona support. There are several dimensional differences, but the only one that is visually obvious is the depth of the counter-bore. It turns out that the yoke seal shield, and the depth of the yoke splines are ALSO implicated in the counter-bore length...but you can't see it by the naked eye. I'm assuming that most anyone can see the difference between a 4 inch yoke, and a 5 inch yoke.

It is impossible to make a single yoke that is correct for both Daytona AND standard pinion support. You will notice that Speedway motors very CLEVERLY states that their yoke is cut to clear standard and Daytona pinions. But the standard yoke has about a 1/4 inch deeper counterbore than Daytona. (The Ford Racing M-4614-A replacement yoke says to machine off .250") If you use a standard yoke on a Daytona support, it will push the seal surface OUT by about 3/16", and it will push the yoke splines OUT by the same distance. This moves the nut OUT about 3/16 of an inch. In almost all cases, it will prevent the nut from reaching the prevailing torque crimp section of the top of the nut.

Nowadays, I just machine off about 3/16 of an inch from the end of the yoke to keep the seal and the nut in the right place.

I am confident that your complete assembly will be just fine. But it would be nice to see a picture of your new third-member when it arrives!

 

[Bustedbroc]

You are missing my point, but it doesn't matter. You already ordered the Speedway unit, and it will be just fine for your application.

Just in case someone else stumbles this thread, the point is that the distance from the pinion bearing face to the end of the pinion retaining nut threads is DIFFERENT for the standard vs Daytona support. There are several dimensional differences, but the only one that is visually obvious is the depth of the counter-bore. It turns out that the yoke seal shield, and the depth of the yoke splines are ALSO implicated in the counter-bore length...but you can't see it by the naked eye. I'm assuming that most anyone can see the difference between a 4 inch yoke, and a 5 inch yoke.

It is impossible to make a single yoke that is correct for both Daytona AND standard pinion support. You will notice that Speedway motors very CLEVERLY states that their yoke is cut to clear standard and Daytona pinions. But the standard yoke has about a 1/4 inch deeper counterbore than Daytona. (The Ford Racing M-4614-A replacement yoke says to machine off .250") If you use a standard yoke on a Daytona support, it will push the seal surface OUT by about 3/16", and it will push the yoke splines OUT by the same distance. This moves the nut OUT about 3/16 of an inch. In almost all cases, it will prevent the nut from reaching the prevailing torque crimp section of the top of the nut.

Nowadays, I just machine off about 3/16 of an inch from the end of the yoke to keep the seal and the nut in the right place.

I am confident that your complete assembly will be just fine. But it would be nice to see a picture of your new third-member when it arrives!

Gotcha, when the new unit comes in I will post some pics. I will also post pics of new and old with a tape measure showing the distance from the third member housing gasket face to the pinion yoke U-joint strap face as this distance was my concern.

 

[Bustedbroc]

Gotcha, when the new unit comes in I will post some pics. I will also post pics of new and old with a tape measure showing the distance from the third member housing gasket face to the pinion yoke U-joint strap face as this distance was my concern.

OK, Finally got the new 3rd member. FEDEX lost the first one somewhere in NJ. Maybe someone else needed one, lol. 2nd one came UPS. Anyway here are a few pics. To be honest, to my eye I cannot tell what the difference is between the so call "Daytona" support bearing and stock Ford. Perhaps it is a slightly larger diameter.

 

[DirtDonk]

Doesn’t look like any of the aftermarket Daytona models I’ve seen either.
Can’t remember the last time I saw an original, so I don’t really remember what they look like, or what the differences are.
But it sure has the look of an aftermarket replacement stock setup.
Hopefully one of the actual experts will have some insight.

 

[Bustedbroc]

Doesn’t look like any of the aftermarket Daytona models I’ve seen either.
Can’t remember the last time I saw an original, so I don’t really remember what they look like, or what the differences are.
But it sure has the look of an aftermarket replacement stock setup.
Hopefully one of the actual experts will have some insight.

You got me thinking. Quick google and this site says the "Daytona" option has a larger "rear" pinion support bearing. To me that means that it would not be visible from the exterior. If you look at my tape measurement it appears the "new" 3rd member yoke extends approx. 1/4" more from the housing. Works for me, glad this saga is over. Now I see my fuel pump leaking! LOL.

Ford 9 Pinion Support - Strange Engineering

Ford 9 Pinion Support - Strange Engineering

www.strangeengineering.net

 

[DirtDonk]

Now I see my fuel pump leaking! LOL.

We call that a “coincidental failure” around here.
Like giving your Bronco a good wax job, or rotating the tires. Then having the water pump start leaking or the radio and heater go wonky!
Pretty much standard operating procedure these days…

 

[Shimmy]

Ugh! this makes me even more anxious to receive my 3rd member... 10 weeks to the day i've been waiting. Ordered mine from QP.

 

[jamesroney]

You got me thinking. Quick google and this site says the "Daytona" option has a larger "rear" pinion support bearing. To me that means that it would not be visible from the exterior. If you look at my tape measurement it appears the "new" 3rd member yoke extends approx. 1/4" more from the housing. Works for me, glad this saga is over. Now I see my fuel pump leaking! LOL.

http://[URL]https://www.strangeengineering.net/ford-9-pinion-supports/

[/URL]

Just in case somebody stumbles onto this thread in the future...

1. The standard Ford 9 inch pinion uses a pair tapered bearings 88048 / 88010. 1.312 ID and 2.6875 OD.
2. The Daytona pinion support uses the same outer bearings, with a Heavy duty inner bearing 89443 / 89410. 1.312 ID and 3 inch OD.
3. The 88048 is 7/8" inch thick. The 89443 is 1-1/8" thick.
4. The crush sleeve / pinion spacer is the same nominal thickness.
5. The pinion gear sits in the same place relative to the ring gear. So the yoke sits 1/4 inch farther away from the axle center-line.
6. The Daytona yoke is machined shorter on the seal surface, and has a shallower counter-bore for the splines. (mentioned above)
7. The Daytona pinion support, C5AW-4668-C is typically fully machined on the mounting flange circumference. The C7AW support is cast with partial mounting flange surface for the snubber. That is usually the easy way to ID them.

@Bustedbroc I can see that your pinion nut on the speedway unit sits higher on the pinion threads than your original C7AW pinion support. It looks to me like they use a "short nut." It will work fine. It would drive me absolutely bananas, and I would machine the yoke to Daytona specs, and machine the slinger correctly...but I'm a little strange that way. I would really appreciate a pic showing the nut if you have one.

You can also see that the Speedway unit uses grade 5 hardware store bolts on the pinion support. Do yourself a favor, and REPLACE those bolts with the factory grade 8 bolts from your old pinion support. Your old bolts are about twice as strong. The 9 inch is fairly famous for puking the pinion out of the housing on a full throttle landing.

 

[Yeller]

You can also see that the Speedway unit uses grade 5 hardware store bolts on the pinion support. Do yourself a favor, and REPLACE those bolts with the factory grade 8 bolts from your old pinion support. Your old bolts are about twice as strong. The 9 inch is fairly famous for puking the pinion out of the housing on a full throttle landing.

at least the housing won't break when it does so it more than likely will be an easy repair.... LOL

I can't remember which company, but I've been receiving yokes that are machined for the Daytona support and come with a spacer to fit a stock support.

 

[Bustedbroc]

Just in case somebody stumbles onto this thread in the future...

1. The standard Ford 9 inch pinion uses a pair tapered bearings 88048 / 88010. 1.312 ID and 2.6875 OD.
2. The Daytona pinion support uses the same outer bearings, with a Heavy duty inner bearing 89443 / 89410. 1.312 ID and 3 inch OD.
3. The 88048 is 7/8" inch thick. The 89443 is 1-1/8" thick.
4. The crush sleeve / pinion spacer is the same nominal thickness.
5. The pinion gear sits in the same place relative to the ring gear. So the yoke sits 1/4 inch farther away from the axle center-line.
6. The Daytona yoke is machined shorter on the seal surface, and has a shallower counter-bore for the splines. (mentioned above)
7. The Daytona pinion support, C5AW-4668-C is typically fully machined on the mounting flange circumference. The C7AW support is cast with partial mounting flange surface for the snubber. That is usually the easy way to ID them.

@Bustedbroc I can see that your pinion nut on the speedway unit sits higher on the pinion threads than your original C7AW pinion support. It looks to me like they use a "short nut." It will work fine. It would drive me absolutely bananas, and I would machine the yoke to Daytona specs, and machine the slinger correctly...but I'm a little strange that way. I would really appreciate a pic showing the nut if you have one.

You can also see that the Speedway unit uses grade 5 hardware store bolts on the pinion support. Do yourself a favor, and REPLACE those bolts with the factory grade 8 bolts from your old pinion support. Your old bolts are about twice as strong. The 9 inch is fairly famous for puking the pinion out of the housing on a full throttle landing.

ToO Late but thanks anyway. Don't expect to push this old girl too hard. Now back to my original issue, see my post "3 speed RAT trans noisy in 3rd gear?". Having an issue diagnosing this strange noise. I will continue to try things to figure it out and post my findings under that heading.