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1968 Engine running hot and overheating

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DaveLev

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thank you for your replies.
I can drive at RPM in 3rd for 20 minutes, sure. Nonstop, flat surface, etc. Wide open roads. I can do the same in 4th as I have previously immediately after the 3rd gear test, and record its results, too.
Fan not backwards. Will do smoke test with leftover smoke bombs from independence day, but I can tell you that when standing anywhere near the engine when running - as I don't have a hood on right now - it blows really hot on me. I guess it could do that if the fan was reversed, but you've seen the photos and part numbers and blade direction and rotation of fan, so pretty sure it is installed correctly.

I will check timing. Bought a gun. will have someone monitor RPM while I do it.

O2 meter for exhaust: I can do a test at smog station a friend owns.

Radiator: That's brand new. Old one had leaks, replaced with new brass 3 core from trusted radiator shop. It is in great shape, and you can see video of its flow.

Never overheats at idle. Never.

Getting a 7 blade fan, 1" spacer, and removing thermostat soon. Will report back.
 

DirtDonk

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I forgot you were running around without the hood. So in theory that should eliminate air-damming at higher speeds as a culprit. In theory at least...
It also should slightly reduce the wind loads at speed I would think. Unless the reduced aero efficiency of the missing hood overcomes the advantage in air evacuation from the radiator and engine compartment.

But his 3rd gear test is still valid just for reducing the overall load from the poor aerodynamics in general at higher road speeds vs engine speeds.

A new radiator with that visible flow at idle is likely capable of cooling a normal engine. So for me it seems to keep coming back to tune (timing and mixture and such) but it's certainly fighting you tooth and nail at this point Dave!

Good luck. Sorry to keep you spending all of your quality time with us and your Bronco;D, but away from your family at this point. But definitely interested to hear how your testing goes.

Paul
 
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DaveLev

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Fighting me? That's an understatement :) I was able to pick up some great parts from a local seller including a 7 blade fan so once I clean it up I will install it and the fan spacer and check the water pump part number and remove the thermostat and do a 45 minute drive in 3rd gear down the interstate.

I ordered the silicone-enforced aftermarket radiator hoses just because. Those will be here in a several days.

Buying a better timing gun with with built-in tach tonight so I can time and view RPM simultaneously. If only it would hold the throttle for me at the same time.

Thanks for your support!
 

Mtgrizzlymn

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Apr 17, 2013
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Are there other vehicles that have this 7 blade fan that will fit? Or maybe a company that makes them. I see Toms used ones but any others?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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DaveLev

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I got a new snap-on timing light with tach built in tonight. I will do timing tomorrow.
 

Mtgrizzlymn

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Dave does your supplier have anymore of those fans a little cheaper than 125


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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DaveLev

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I will ask him - sorry called into work meetings a lot this past week. Have new timing light, waiting for some more parts to show up EOD Thursday, so should be able to report back more this weekend. Sorry for delay, team...appreciate your help.
 

metal1

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I just reread your post and yours sounds just like my bronco when I picked it up ,normal temps at slow speeds way to hot on the high way ,changed out pump prodded out radiator new t stat ,nothing ,pulled pump just to check ,sheet metal impelled loose on the shaft could turn it by hand ,checked old pp its impelled was rusted to a smaller size ,installed a new Stewart pump with a cast impeller, fixed my heating issue ,so I'm thinking it flowed enough to cool at slow speed but at higher rpm s it had the same flow just could not see it driving down the road with the cap off ,,it was so kicking my assets that I just parked it for a few yrs ,now I'm glad I had some time to work on it and trying to make up time using my bronco ,good luck with yours
 
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DaveLev

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Okay here's the major update:

Have not timed it yet. On the radar to do soon.

Have not put in electronic ignition. Own it, and will do soon.

Have not done ballast resister. Ordered, and will do soon.

I did, however, do 5 things I said I would do:

1.) Put on larger 7 blade Ford fan (upgrade from stock 5 blade on my 68). Is like a plane taking off, but I'm cool.

2.) Removed the thermostat completely. Removed that from the equation.

3.) Added 1" spacer. Had factory 1/2". Not sure this was necessary, as my fan now rubs under rare occasions on the fan shroud. I am seeking recommendations on aftermarket fan shroud if you have any. Stock one is a bit ugly, but in solid shape. Running it on there still with 1/4" gap between the blades and the shroud, so when I heavily accelerate and chassis flexes, I get some rubbing (new motor mounts aren't preventing this slight movement - flex is normal I guess)

4.) Replaced the water pump y'all suspected was reverse rotation for serpentine system or similar. I went with edlebrock aluminum high flow.

5.) Went with silicone radiator and bypass hoses. They have spring in lower as well.

So what was the net result? It started up immediately. It is 80-90 degrees daily, so I can't say it was truly a 'cold' start. However, even with thermostat out, it warmed up to 160 or so within 5 minutes in the driveway.

Road testing: In town, never got above 190 in traffic. Then again, never had problems with overheating in traffic. On highway: Drove for roughly 90 minutes - longest test ever - doing over 65 MPH in 4th gear. I may have hit up to 90 MPH for 5-10 minute bursts. The vehicle honestly feels unsafe to me bouncing all over the place at that speed.

The temperature at normal highway speeds up to 70 or so, even under load putting it to 3/4 throttle pedal, did not exceed 195.

When I did some minor grades uphill - 5 minutes or so - and tried to sustain the speed, temperature climbed slowly to 205, then settled back down at 190 on the downgrade, and when it smoothed out it resumed to 195 at 70 MPH or so.

When I tried to speed - passing BMWs in the fast lane - I may have even hit 95 MPH. I tried to sustain driving at 10+ minutes at over 80 MPH, but I didn't have a coat on and it was midnight and I have no hood, doors, roof, etc. I was a moving violation waiting to happen, and the ride was bumpy and rough and I felt like I was a bit out of control. May have hit 100 - not sure. The bronco felt very unsafe, so I slowed down. However, during my high speed run-for-the-border test, it never got over 210.

Hood is still off, but I feel confident putting it back on tomorrow. I have hydraulic hood prop conversion to install.

I think I have solved the overheating problems, however I did not do them one at a time like I had planned. I figured if I have coolant out and thermostat housing off, might as well do fan. And why do fan when you can do spacer? Why get the fan and spacer off, and not paint the upper pulley? Why if radiator is out, not go ahead and do some analysis on the water pump? With that out, why not paint the front of the engine block and timing cover I never painted last time? Why not upgrade water pump while it's out? That's how my logic was. I was like damn, I got it half way done, the garage is a huge mess, I've done this water pump swap before, might as well decommission the bronco for another day or two, so that's what I did. Cost a lot more, got a lot done, and so far zero issues. But I never did find out the root cause, did I. Was it a bad water pump? Don't think so. Factory 5 blade fan not working well enough? Probably not the issue, as I was at highway speeds. Water circulation issue? Possibly - but water pump worked great. Bad thermostat? Who knows - professional, high end thermostat tested it twice right direction hole in it for bubbling air out facing up, etc. By pulling it out completely, it ruled that out. Water can circulate fine. Would the stock/existing water pump work better with the thermostat out? Who knows. Was it the upgrade to the 'racing' style water pump that did the trick? Unsure, but at idle with no thermostat flow frankly looks similar to what the stock one did, perhaps a 10% increase in flow by my eyeballing it.

I will post photos and videos later. Did very interesting test with the 'old' factory (new) water pump I bought a month ago in my utility sink. Hooked up 1/2" drill to it and ran it underwater to watch the amount of turbulence it created in the sink. I knew it was flowing good based on the other video I posted two weeks ago, but how much I have no idea as I don't have a flow meter. Looks like it was working good. I can only reasonably conclude that it was the thermostat, but I don't know. I'm starting not to care, as I had my first successful trip in this damn thing since I bought it and have sunk over $19,000 into something that still looks like a $5,000 bronco.

Thanks for reading this long post. I'd like to hear your feedback.
 

nvrstuk

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No cell phone reception for a week...just saw your update!

Glad things are ok at this point. Key will be with hood on as like Paul, I forgot that all this testing was being done with the hood off....

I have posted an interesting theory (some think it's bogus but NASCAR proves it) on water pump pressure in the block that I picked up from 2 different radiator companies AND talking to a guy who deals with NASCAR engines and cooling. Block pressure is the key and Stewart wtrpumps, Edelbrock and Motorcraft are supposed to be in the top 4 for pressurizing the block. Most of us think that the only pressure in the cooling system is from the rad cap, it's not. It's the waterpump behind the closed t-stat...25#lbs of it with the t-stat in and a cold engine with the cap off...

Anyway, I'm hoping you are good to go and my guess was the pump (if no hydrocarbons) as we only see flow in the tubes when looking thru the top of the radiator by removing the cap, but we can never "see" the pressure behind the t-stat without throwing a gauge on it and checking it which I have done now and the numbers are interesting.
 

DirtDonk

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...Block pressure is the key and Stewart wtrpumps, Edelbrock and Motorcraft are supposed to be in the top 4 for pressurizing the block. Most of us think that the only pressure in the cooling system is from the rad cap, it's not. It's the waterpump behind the closed t-stat...25#lbs of it with the t-stat in and a cold engine with the cap off...

Your thread about that should be in the Tech Articles I think. Or at least in some form or another.
Forgot it it was mentioned back then, but the pressure from the pump is the reason that no OE purposely puts their radiator fill neck/cap on the same side as the inlet hose any more.
In the very old days that was one of the reasons for so many blowouts and "boilovers" plaguing early automobiles. Especially with narrow section down-flow designs with the cap in the middle and the engine output/radiator input hose nearby.

Paul
 

nvrstuk

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DaveLev

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Thanks nvrstuk - liked the heat torture test thread, thanks for sharing. The phrase, "If in doubt, replace it - no matter how good it looks" has been my very expensive experience on this bronco. It sounds like you did a 17" mechanical fan with a clutch out of an explorer and a custom fan shroud and stock/brass radiator. Is that accurate? To recap, my current setup is a roughly 18" fan, stock shroud with some occasional rubbing I'm looking into, no clutch fan, spaced correctly, stock radiator, edlebrock water pump, and no thermostat for now.

I read your block pressure test thread as well. Deeply technical, and I wish I understood more of it. Something came up in there, though: External oil coolers. I made an observation about that I'd like to share.

Since I have rebuilt my heads and changed my coolant 5 times in 1 month and the oil 3 times and the water pump twice, etc., I noticed that my oil pressure (mechanical Autometer gauge) reads about the same pressure as it did before the heads. I used to not be able to drive it more than 45 minutes before a hose would burst or the temp would climb to 230+ degrees, but now with all the new stuff I have on, after driving for 40+ minutes, I notice that at idle my pressure is much lower than it was before - hovering at 10 PSI or so (again, only after oil is hot). It is not synthetic and possibly not a quality brand of oil, but either way the two things that pertain to oil ciriculation that can be done that have not been done are 1.) external oil cooler; and 2.) swap of oil pump. Now I realize that as oil gets hot it breaks down a bit, but we're talking under 100 miles since new heads put on. Please advise.
 

nvrstuk

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I have a quite a bit more I could write on the pressure test but some times too much is just that... anything specific shoot me a pm.

Oil pressure. Is the gauge accurate? My mechanical Phantom Autometer water temp and oil temp gauges weren't accurate. My water temp gauge was 20F HOT comparing it to 2 different infared guns and to my new Autometer electric gauges of the same series! My mech oil pressure gauge read about 10 psi higher than my electric also...


What is your rpm at idle? if you are at 600 or so and have ten pounds that's acceptable. IF you are at 1000 and have ten pounds then you are on the low side of low. Usually the old standard was 10# pressure for every 1000 rpm. You could try an oil stabilizer like Lucas makes as the Route 66 traveling Roadster proved worked on his journey across the country.


Somewhat related:
I tend to think that part of the cooling issues of the 351W is associated with the larger journal bearings and of course the surface area that when comparing the 5.0 journal surface area is so much larger. All that does is create heat for the oil as the engine is totally warmed up... an oil cooler would be an interesting comparison test but I have literally zero space in that engine compartment area with my TC style p/s pump mounted there below my York...real estate is tight but I'd try it if possible...

Maybe Viper can post that filter adapter setup for an oil cooler... I'm thinking.... $$$
 

Rustytruck

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Not all oil filters are created equal. Try a Wix, Napa Gold or Motorcraft oil filter if you are getting weird oil pressures. I have personally seen that make a difference. It has to do with the amount of filter media or how the oil bypass valve in the filter is controlled. If your using 5X, 10x-30 oil your pressure wont stabilize at idle until the oil fully warms up.
 

Timmy390

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I didn't like how 5W30 (what the owners manual for the donor van called for) sounded in my 351W. By sounded I mean you could hear it dripping back into the pan like water when shut down after reaching N.O.T. I also had some valve train noise once hot. I switched to Rotella 15w40 and saw a small increase in pressure (not much but some), no more valve train noise and no more water dripping sound back into the pan when I shut down. Running the old standby FL-1A

Tim
 
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DaveLev

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Thanks guys. I run 5W/30, so getting hotter making it thinner will reduce oil pressure I suppose.

It is stick, and my idle is roughly 600 RPMs. Pressure is at 10 (assuming gauge is accurate). Moves up to 20+ at 1,500 RPMs, no problem, even when hot.

Will try switching oil.
 

Justafordguy

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I switched to Rotella 15w40 and saw a small increase in pressure (not much but some), no more valve train noise and no more water dripping sound back into the pan when I shut down. Running the old standby FL-1A

Tim

I use the same oil and filter and my pressure runs 60 psi at 600 rpms even here in Florida when it's a 100 degrees out.
 
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DaveLev

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I went to 3 auto parts places, then ended up finding the "Rotella" brand at Wal-Mart...had not heard of this brand/product line before, but it is made by Shell I think it indicated on the side. Will swap oil & filter soon and report back.
 
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