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2009 Cooling Tips Tech Article question

LouisT

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Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
50
Loc.
Jefferson, Texas
In the Tech archives is a real interesting article on modifying a 351 W intake. Basically, if I understand it correctly, the idea is to take the cooling water from the back of the block via the intake manifold passages that are presently closed. Drilling out and running the two back ports together along with the front port helps to better distribute coolant and possibly removing hot spots due to lack of flow. So far no one has responded with first hand experience to the article saying how's it's worked for them. My 351W likes to run a little too hot crawling or in extended low speed conditions when making power. (Not racing or rock crawling - just normal off road - hunting/fishing - mild trails) I've pretty much done the full routine; high flow pump, 4 core (new), shroud, 7 blade, sped up the pump, 180 Robert Shaw thermostat, correct timing, recovery tank etc. The truck will not overheat but it seems to flirt with doing it. It's pretty much stock, engine is a stock 2bbl-351W '86 truck version, not lifted, stock wheels, stock 2bbl, stock ignition, stock C4 and so forth. So, all this being told, does anyone have experience from having done this modification because I'm about at the point I want to try it? If it'll just knock 20 degrees off I think I'll feel a whole lot better.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
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Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,706
If you look at how the coolant flows through the engine you will realize this does nothing. The only reason the heads even have a port in that location is so they are interchangeable on both sides of the engine. The only reason the factory ever started drilling and tapping holes back there was to get cold water into the EGR cooler.

While drilling holes back there won't do anything evil, it doesn't do anything good either. Water does flow through the heads and will flush any air pockets out of the back of the heads naturally.

The basic small block cooling system has a waterpump that pull water in from the bottom of the radiator (along with a little warm water from the bypass hose and heater hose if the heat is on). That water is pushed to the back of the block. There are a couple of tine cooling holes in key locations going straight to the head, but they are small and don't really affect the amount of coolant going through the block. At the back of the block the water is turned up into the heads. Now the water flows from the back of the head to the front of the head. All this time the left side of the engine is completely isolated from the right side. The waterpump has 2 outlets into the block. It is as if there are two completely separate 4-cylinder engines as far as the cooling system goes. Now at the front of the heads the water exits into the intake manifold. At this point the two system are merged back into a single cooling system. Exits the thermostat housing and goes around again.

How is a crossover going to do anything? The system is balanced side to side. The water has to flow through the same amount of block and head. More then likely the fixes are placebo fixes. Doing all that work, it had to have done some good, even if it didn't. Something else was probably (accidently?) fixed at the same time.


Now back to what you are doing. Low speeds, under load, making heat and trying to shed it strictly with the fan. Sounds like you have the basics covered with good waterflow and good air control. Two thoughts come to mind. One is air recirculating from the engine compartment back into the front of the radiator. Either over the top of the core support or under the bumper. The other is the transmission cooler. Stock cooler is on the cold side of the radiator. So even if you do shed heat out of the water you are putting it right back in just before the water pump. If you want a transmission to live, this is great. An oil to air cooler can't shed heat nearly as well as the oil to water can. Not without a LOT of airflow, which at low speeds you won't have. I think you may have engine heating issues caused by the transmission. Not the engine itself. Be careful in playing with this. If the transmission is making that much heat you still have to make sure you get rid of it. If nothing else what you have now is a good early warning system that you need to stop for a little bit and let it idle and cool down (engine and transmission). Pull the transmission out and the engine may stay cool and have no warning that the transmission is getting toasty. In short, put a fan driven trans cooler in before the radiator cooler.
 

jckkys

Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
5,213
I've noticed the same problem with my 351/C4 combination. Broncobowsher is right about the intake cross over. There's no reason to believe it does anything to help engine cooling. Ford and even Edelbrock added this feature to later EGR intakes. Some took the fact that they did this, to mean it's a cooling improvement. But it just provided a place for the ported vacuum switch or PVS that opens the EGR when the engine gets warm. The low speed lack of cooling needs to be addressed elsewhere. The hot air does go over the core support, around the sides of and under the radiator. There's also room between the radiator and core support at the top. All newer vehicles have closed these places for heated air to be drawn back into the front of the radiator. The front axle seems create a high pressure area behind the radiator slowing air flow at highway speed too. I think an air dam between the radiator and front cross member would help cooling at both high and low speed. Many newer vehicles also have an air dam under the front of the radiator to move more cool air into the radiator. In short the deficiencies in EB cooling could be helped more with better air flow management. In E and F series trucks with far larger radiator frontal areas, over heating is not a problem, tho the coolant moves through the engine like it does in EBs. More area for liquid to air heat transfer is the difference.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
49,440
Hey Louis. I think 'bowsher pretty much covered it, but what I think was going on back in the day that they were trying to fix, was localized hot spots from steam pockets on modified (over-bored) 351's. Like he said, this may not have "fixed" the actual issue, but I think it did help some of the higher performance types (this was a common race fix back in the day, and promoted often in the magazines) by most likely getting the steam pockets to dissipate more quickly by flowing directly out of the most effected rear cylinders.
That said, you don't seem to qualify for any of the issues addressed by that. General hotter running from low-speed under load conditions, with a bone stock engine. And a newer engine to boot, which supposedly are not as prone to the old casting shift issues of the older blocks.
Not having been bored over, yours is unlikely to have localized hot spots unless yours was simply a defective block. Which could happen of course, but it's low on the list. I would check a few other things first.

First of all, describe what you feel is "hot" in your case? What temperature is it running, and is your gauge reading correctly? Your '86 engine's proper operating range is 195° to 205° if I'm not mistaken. What is yours reading?
If it's indeed reading hot, then you first need to confirm your gauge's readings. If you haven't already that is.

Next, what is "correct timing" as you've specified, and is your engine still running all of it's original smog equipment or is it sitting in a Bronco with all of it's stuff removed?
Or is this by any chance actually still in the '86 truck?
No matter, I would try bumping the timing up a couple of degrees at a time until it either starts pinging or stops running nicely. If the timing is retarded for what your particular engine likes, you might just find that advancing the timing cures, or at least reduces the temperature readings.

Stock C4, but what is your differential gear ratio? If you're pushing 33 to 35 inch tires or more, with 3.50 gears, then you're overburdening your engine's cooling system from both inside (high load) and outside (more heat from the transmission) and not helping matters.

And finally, what temperatures are you reading? Yes, it's nice to be able to do what it takes to keep it below the 205 degree range, but in reality even in the 220 to 230 range you're not overheating. As long as it doesn't try to creep up above that, you're still in the relatively safe zone. Granted, your headroom is greatly reduced and you could more easily run into trouble if you have a heat spike and are not watching the gauge, but you'll still have the relative feel of how the engine is working, so not likely to get caught off guard except under duress.

In a pinch, you could add an electric fan in a pusher arrangement in front of the radiator, but this has been a hit-or-miss proposition with Broncos for years. Not much room for much of a fan, and not necessarily a lack of airflow issue anyway. But it can help under certain conditions.

I would still try to bump up the timing, then lower the idle back down as you go up in timing, to keep things normal. See what it gets you.
If it doesn't reduce temps, at the very least you might find the engine is happier and runs better with a little extra timing. And it might just help with the temps too.

I guess the first thing to try though, is to confirm your gauge readings with an external IR thermometer, or at the very least a good basting thermometer (or whatever the proper kitchen term is) in the filler neck.

As a last resort, you might try the coolant cross-over modification. You wouldn't be the first to do it, and won't likely be the last. Others here have done it I believe, with mixed results. Maybe some of them will see this discussion and chime in.
Like Broncobowher said though, it's not likely going to hurt anything or make it worse. I just don't think it's called for in your case.

Good luck.

Paul
 

sykanr0ng

Bronco Guru
Joined
Aug 11, 2014
Messages
5,363
This is a different use case but....
NASCAR cars are considered to be at optimum with oil temps at 220 to 230 F and water temps at 200 to 210 F
They need to survive and to perform very well in 500 mile races.
 
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LouisT

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Apr 21, 2015
Messages
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Loc.
Jefferson, Texas
Much obliged for the very thoughtful replies! I greatly appreciate each one. This turns out to be mostly for nought as this PM I took another look at the back of the manifold and there are no "bosses" to drill out. So, this option has disappeared. I have not run up the timing above the factory 6 BTDC specs. It's worth a try so I'll see what I can learn from doing that. The engine runs up to about 220 or a bit more at its worse. This is why I said it is not over heating but I would like a little bit more breathing room. I'm just about to the point to think this engine simply likes to run warmer than what I think it should. I can fast idle while stopped and drag the temps down pretty easily so I know things are working. And, I guess, this is just how it's gonna be. The trans does run sort of hot (about 220 - 230 at the worse). I posted on this earlier. I have a 16 row fan controlled Derale cooler mounted on the right fender PLUS I'm running into the radiator too. I've been thinking the oil cooler is sitting in hot air and not able to drag the temps off as well as I'd like. There's no good place to move it because it's too thick. Still, get back on the road and everything heads towards normal in a few miles. No, there is no smog equipment and doesn't appear to have been any. Again, I appreciate the feed back. I sort of knew this was a unpopular idea because of the lack of replies on the article and there doesn't appear to be too much chatter on the innerweb about it so I guess it's mostly a moot point. But, I think it was well worth being discussed! Thanks!
 

Broncobowsher

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Jun 4, 2002
Messages
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Quick question about the cooler you added. Does the fluid go through external cooler first or second? If second, replumb and put it first and see if that helps. I expect it will.

Fluid flow on a C4 cooler is out at the front and in at the back.
 

jckkys

Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
5,213
As I said, the larger and much heavier E250-350 vans don't have the problem. The reason is obvious. The radiator is several times as large as EB radiators. The 351 is the same, but has to work much harder, and still doesn't over heat. You can't fit a wider radiator between the frame rails, so other cooling enhancements have to be explored. The most advanced timing that the engine will allow is a good start and '86 351s including the 5.8 HO 4bbl will easily take 15 degrees initial advance. I put mine at 20 degrees. You want combustion to be complete before the exhaust stroke. Recirculating hot air back through the radiator IS a contributing factor when the truck is moving slowly while working hard.
 

72Sport

Bronco Guru
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Jul 8, 2002
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2,954
In the summer of 2004 I wrote an article for Bronco Driver on how to keep a 302 with ac cool at idle. It was published in Dec of 2004 in issue #12. I still have the changes I made under the hood etc.

I found that the reason it was running very hot idle with the ac on was the air movement in the engine compartment. Hot air was drawn thru the radiator then thrown off the fan in a radial direction. When the Bronco is moving forward the air exits out the vents at the rear of the hood and and out the bottom of the engine compartment. When is not moving the very hot air is thrown at the hood and toward the inner fenders. The easiest place for it to exit the engine compartment is over the top of the radiator because the fan creates a vacuum in front of the radiator and draws the hot back thru the radiator over and over again. Don't believe it. Open the hood while the engine is running walk from the front of the Bronco toward the firewall notice the difference in air flow. Not much air movement at the fire wall compared to what is being moved off of the tips of the fan blades.

I hooked a hand held thermometer up to a thermocuple mounted about 1 1/2" from grill side of the radiator. The air temperature outside was about 90 degrees. When I stopped at a signal I noticed the air temperature in front of the radiator was up to about 105 degrees and climbing. If the air was not coming over the top of the radiator it should have stayed around 90 degrees.

If you look at cars built today the radiator is mounted on the outside of the core support and the hood seals on the engine side of the radiator. The air that enters the engine compartment must go thru the radiator. There is no air going over the top.

I realize a bigger engine needs more cooling. Since the 351 is wider and taller it has less room for air movement toward the rear of the Bronco. I don't know whether the sealing the area above the radiator and across the core support will cure the problem but it may help.

I have attached a few pictures from the article to show what I did in 2004. It is not pretty but it works great.

When I first installed all the seals I pulled off the aluminum piece across the top of the radiator with the engine running and the ac on and closed the hood quickly. With the engine running the engine temp began climbing rapidly. When temp climbed to 200 f. I opened the hood put the aluminum piece back on closed the hood and the temperature began to drop, not as fast as it went up but very noticeable.
 

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LouisT

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Apr 21, 2015
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Well, this has been a very interesting and enlightening tread. I think the only thing I've not tried is using a little more timing advance and maybe run the Derale cooler first off the transmission. I do recognize the airflow issue and have noted the hot air does tend to move forward in low speed situations. In my experiences, I've come to a couple of conclusions. One, even though the truck has plenty of power, it's worth sliding into low range and allow the engine a few more rpm for the same speed. This actually helps quite a bit and I am not running anything but stock size wheels/tires with 3:50 gears. Secondly, at some point, you'll just have to stop and fast idle to pull off some heat or again, run in a lower gear. This is my second Bronco but I've had all kinds of trucks, cars, tractors, motor homes, 4 wheelers and motorcycles so hot conditions are not strange to me and you just have to recognize that a Bronco is its own animal with its own idiosyncrasies. Then too, its got an almost 20% larger engine. At this point, I would not recommend to anyone to pull out a perfectly good 302 and install the 351W which is what happened with my truck. There's lot to be said for adding cubic inches but in this case, I'm not so sure it's all that worthwhile. I bought the truck, pretty much just like everyone else from a PO that did lots of nice upgrades. He's not the one that pulled the 302 but instead this was done by one of the more famous Bronco shops here in Texas and for unknown reasons. The PO didn't even know it had been done which is a whole 'nother story. Anyway, I'm sure once I've done a couple more things, I'll just reconcile myself I've done about all I can do and to let the old girl just do what she's inclined to do and stop fighting it. Thanks Again!
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
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Jun 4, 2002
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Low speeds, 33s, C4, and 3.50 gears are not the best for high load, low speed driving either. Lots of torque convertor heat growing. The 20% larger tire makes for more heat then the 20% larger engine.

If you want to play a little further, make it more fun to drive as well, think about a set of 4.11 gears sometime in the future.
 

jckkys

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Mar 15, 2012
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5,213
It's understandable that the 351 swap would look like the reason for excess heat. I bought my '77 new and drove it for about 20 yrs. with the 302 before I did a 351 swap. I found that the 351 made very little difference in the abillity of the cooling system to do it's job. My fuel economy improved and it passed emissions tests with better numbers than the 302. Going from the stock L78X15 tires to 31X10.50s seemed to work the engine harder. There was some loss of fuel economy and the cooling system was pushed more than the extra 50 cubes. I can't imagine losing the huge torque advantage of the 351, so the air dams 72Sport used and maybe some more with the same goal, look promising. The 302 had the same symptoms in 110+ temps of the desert summers. This time of year I can't get coolant temps to exceed the 195 degree rating of the thermostat.
 
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