351 to 700r4... help with your knowlage! ...OR 4R70W

[rtreads]

So I have a 75' with a mildly built 351. I curently have a built C4 (will be for sale after the swap). I am looking to go to a 700r4. I have sourced the adapters from AA for the motor to 700r4 and the 700r4 to D20. My worry is that on the AA site they say the motor/tranny adaptor will not work with the 351, but it will with the 302??? So, I ask why? What have you all done to make this work? If you have first hand knowlage of how this swap is done, please provide pics, make/model, and any other info of parts that makes this swap work. I would also be interested in hearing exactly what you had to do for D shaft mods. And not to forget any tranny mods you advise when building the 700r4.

Thanks for the help! I understand that this wont be a walk in the park, but I am trying to learn all that I can ahead of time and source/price all parts before I dive in!

Ryan

 

[Broncobowsher]

My guess is teh AA kit is balanced for a late model 302/5.0 with the 50 oz-in balance. The 351 is the same as the early 302, 28 oz-in balance.

 

[rtreads]

My guess is teh AA kit is balanced for a late model 302/5.0 with the 50 oz-in balance. The 351 is the same as the early 302, 28 oz-in balance.

...No the kit comes with a 28oz balance plate. The 351 uses a 28 as well, I believe.

http://advanceadapters.com/product/2237/712588-A.html

"Advance Adapter

This adapter plate assembly is used to adapt a Ford small block 302 / 5.0L to the GM TH350, TH400, and 700R4 automatic transmissions. The adapter kit includes a 356 T-6 aluminum adapter plate, plastic dust cover, torque converter adapter ring, 164th tooth 28.oz balance flexplate, GM dowel pins, fastening hardware, and adapter instructions.

Note: We market this kit to be used exclusively for the 302 / 5.0L. We do not recommend this adapter kit to be used with stroked 302 such as 331 ci, 347ci engine and 351W small blocks.

*Some customers have experienced difficulties when using a 351W small block. The torque converter could not be moved forward off the pump the required distance per adapter kit instructions*.

Note: The flexplate included in this kit has a 28. oz-in balance."

 

[Broncobowsher]

OK, found the numbers.
712588-A is for the early 28 oz-in balance engines, listed as 68-80
712588-B is for the late 50 oz-in balance engines, listed as 82-97
712588-C is for 1981 only

-C is a mystery. I have no idea what is up with that.
-B should go all the way to '01
-A should go as early as '66 ( I would say '62 with the first small blocks but the bellhousing battern changed in '66)

I see no reason why the -A would not work on a 351W.

Keep in mind that the AA info is sometimes excelent mixed with completely wack. It takes some digging to tell which is which. And don't expect much in the for of directions. If you get a parts list in the kit that is generally considered a good set of instructions from AA. Then again some of the instructions are very good, but those are rare.

If you have not bought stuff yet, consider the 4R70W. It has nearly the same spread of ratios (4.06) as the 700R4 (4.08) and can be installed with minimal to no adaptors.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I don't know why they would have issues. I know some of the stroker kits have a shallow pilot hole that might cause some issues, but the stock 351 pilot hole should be the same as the 302. I don't know what's up with that.

Just do a 4R70W, they work with the 351. Been running mine since early '02.

 

[rtreads]

OK, found the numbers.
712588-A is for the early 28 oz-in balance engines, listed as 68-80
712588-B is for the late 50 oz-in balance engines, listed as 82-97
712588-C is for 1981 only

-C is a mystery. I have no idea what is up with that.
-B should go all the way to '01
-A should go as early as '66 ( I would say '62 with the first small blocks but the bellhousing battern changed in '66)

I see no reason why the -A would not work on a 351W.

Keep in mind that the AA info is sometimes excelent mixed with completely wack. It takes some digging to tell which is which. And don't expect much in the for of directions. If you get a parts list in the kit that is generally considered a good set of instructions from AA. Then again some of the instructions are very good, but those are rare.

If you have not bought stuff yet, consider the 4R70W. It has nearly the same spread of ratios (4.06) as the 700R4 (4.08) and can be installed with minimal to no adaptors.

I thought about sticking with the AOD, AODE, and the 4R70W. I even have a good friend from high school that is a heavy line tech at the local Ford dealer. But I dont want to mess with controllers to go with the tranny. I like the simplicity of having a self supporting tranny. Sure, the adaptors are a little bit of a pain to deal with... initally. Then its over... no further issues to deal with. Where as with the controllers for the electronic trannys there is just one more thing to go wrong. I am a fan of the K.I.S.S. method. I also like that the 700r4 is cheaper.

With the "incompatibility" issue from AA... AA doesnt say its an imbalance issue. They say it is a clearance issue (see quote above from AA site). What have other people done to avoid this issue??

Thanks again!!

 

[Broncobowsher]

I only know one person who has done the 700R conversion. He used a stock 302/5.0. Then spent a fortune getting a transfer case to work. Oh the 700 still needs a little box for the lock up convertor to work right. I think all the lock up convertors are eletrical in the 700s

 

[Mark]

http://www.700r4inaford.com/

Contact Kincade - he is the man with the answers.

 

[onebadd73]

Check out Mike Bautista's site at:

http://builtfords.com/Site/Site/700stak.html

He put one behind his 351w along with with a stak 3 speed.

 

[Big One]

Give Bailiebilt a call. Hes running a 700R behind his 351. Not sure it matters, but he runs a atlas t-case.

Heres a link to his web page. His phone# is there.

http://bailiebilt.com/

 

[needabronco]

ToddZ69 runs one. It drives very nice. He did end up with a 3 speed Atlas behind it. PM him, he's very helpful...

 

[Broncobowsher]

ToddZ69 runs one. It drives very nice. He did end up with a 3 speed Atlas behind it. PM him, he's very helpful...

4-speed Atlas.

 

[needabronco]

I stand corrected. The 'bling' glare must have been in my eyes:-X

 

[Broncobowsher]

Yes, Todd did the expensive route. 700R4 from bowtie overdrives then found the short shaft 272(?) wouldn't clear the frame rail. So a 4-speed Atlas went in. I don't even want to consider what it cost him and I know it was down for around a year to do the swap. He will probably correct me about a few things come Monday morning when he checks this. Not sure if he ever got the hot trans issues fixed. Something about running hot when running manual 1st and 2nd due to fixed full line pressure in those gears.

 

[toddz69]

Yes, Todd did the expensive route. 700R4 from bowtie overdrives then found the short shaft 272(?) wouldn't clear the frame rail. So a 4-speed Atlas went in. I don't even want to consider what it cost him and I know it was down for around a year to do the swap. He will probably correct me about a few things come Monday morning when he checks this. Not sure if he ever got the hot trans issues fixed. Something about running hot when running manual 1st and 2nd due to fixed full line pressure in those gears.

It was a spendy swap, that's for sure . If I had just kept my D20, it would've been much more reasonably priced. Warm trans issues are a thing of the past now - once I got the cooler out from behind the bumper and into the airstream the temps were more reasonable.

Todd Z.

 

[DirtDonk]

I thought initially that perhaps AA's recommendations had something to do with the old-school thought that the transmissions couldn't handle the added torque of the bigger motors. Until the differences in crank specs and the torque-converter issues were mentioned.
Maybe they just had one or two customers that had this issue and it's not an across-the-board problem?
If that was the case, they's want to mention it and recommend against it on the chance that it could happen again. More unhappy customers because some possibility is NOT mentioned, than if it is brought up right in the beginning.

Paul

 

[rtreads]

K. So what are your thoughts on the 4R70W? Prices? places to find units? different controllers and their options? Can I use my converter from my C4? I would be thinking of going with the NP205 just for a bolt up t case.

thanks again!!!

 

[needabronco]

You'll spend 650 for the computer, you still need to locate the transmission, and you still need to have an adapter for the D20 or another transmission.

If you already have the adapters for the 700R4 Id go that route.

 

[rtreads]

I dont have them yet... I am trying to figure this all out BEFORE I spend money on stuff that wont work.

 

[needabronco]

I would email Kinkade Bauer and ask him about the 351 issues, he also has the best prices on adapters... My honest opinion is to go with whatever transmission you can source the cheapest. 700R4's can be found cheap, but around here they are pretty scarce. 4R70W's are harder to find, but research them to find out what they need. I think costwise it'll be about the same. I have a 2wd 4R70W sitting around here, and I'm still considering the 700R4 route simply to not have another computer to hide in my truck, and with adapters for the GM trans the cost is pretty close. I've driven Todd Z's rig and really like how his 700R4 shifts, the gearing seems about perfect also...