351w (393-408) Stoker Options

[LowCountryEB]

Currently running:

1974 Bronco (302)
NP435
4:11's
35" Tires
3" Susp. Lift
2" Body Lift

Block:
What is the best year block to buy? I have read a lot of good comments about the 69-74 351w's due to their additional mass. But have also read that these blocks are problemsome when using for a stroker motor, and the deck height may be too low. What year should I look for? If in a yard, what kind of truck/van should I look at?

What I want:

I want a high torque (stump jumper) motor at lower RPM's. HP too, but torque is more important. I want awesome numbers, but also want the motor to be reasonably priced to build, dependable, and reliable. I want the motor to last 75k+ miles (4-5 years) at least. My bronco is a weekend driver. I'm not looking for a drag car, but I do want to be quick and fast out of the hole.

I have done a lot of research about the 393 vs. 408 scenario, but want to ask BRONCO owners their opinions.

Parts: (and read comments below)
Stoker Kits
Pistons
Heads
Camshaft

I have read a lot of good things about the Eagle stroker kits. Is this the most reasonable, and best kit for the money?

What about the pistons? I have read a lot of good comments about the Keith Black pistons.

Heads? How about Edelbrock?
Camshaft? What is a good 4x4 mid range cam?

If anyone has a good build spec sheet they can email, that would be great. Please let me know. I appreciate your opinions.

 

[trailbound]

man brother, i think we have a differance of opinion on the word "reasonable".

69-74 block
Edelbrocks are nice heads
for the stroker kit there are only two names I would go with, CHP (coast high performance) and DSS

 

[Ryan]

My 393

You don't need a kit for a 393, just a crank and pistons

Ford Racing 3.85" stroker crank M-6303-A385

Keith Black 364 Hypereutectic pistons. -22cc dish with Compression Distance of 1.608" (these use full floating piston pins)
This will put compression around 9.5:1 with 60cc heads

Stock 5.8L 5.956 connection rods (need to machine them for full floating piston pins)

 

[Devin]

Are you planning to go w/EFI?

If not, come over to the dark side and throw a 400 in there. It'll be cheaper to build than the 393W. Then, down the road when you want to get really insane, stroke it to a 496. ;D

However, if you want EFI, the price difference between the two kind of levels out.

 

[Broncobowsher]

The '69 and '70 blocks are the short deck height. Great if you want cheap compression but generally a pain when trying to keep compression resonable with a stroker

My block of choice would actually be the F4 or '94 to '97 block so you can run OEM roller cam parts. You also get a 1 piece rear main seal with that.

Weekend toy, so premium fuel is acceptable? Aim for about 10.5:1 compression ratio with aluminium heads. Good flowing heads (2.02/1.60 valve size) but not the monster race heads.

As for 393 vs. 408; I like the 408. The longer rod motors I have built have been better engines then the shorter rod engines. If budget is a concern, and you have a good set of 351 rods then the 393 is the affordable solution. Since budget is a concern you may not have enough for both a 408 kit and good heads. Since it sounds like you don't want to get into the engine for several years after you put it together, do the 393 and good heads. If you have the little extra coin, go linger in the rods and do the 408.

As for the actual heads and cam to run, that varies a lot. Cam I would recomend a stock 5.0 mustang or crane 2020. Heads AFR 185 or Trickflow (the standard version not the race heads).

 

[bax]

Are you planning to go w/EFI?

If not, come over to the dark side and throw a 400 in there. It'll be cheaper to build than the 393W. Then, down the road when you want to get really insane, stroke it to a 496. ;D

However, if you want EFI, the price difference between the two kind of levels out.

The 393W is a good motor. But if you want 400 lbs of Torque, and 350 hp without any fancy parts that will go 200k miles. look at the 400. What Devin said about the injection for a 400 is no longer the case. PME now makes intake plates that will allow you to bolt a Windsor intake directly onto the the big 400. This means that all the injection stuff for the Windsor is now a bolt on for the big C motors. Part # AP34 Works perfect with aussie heads.
Glad I could help cloud the issue.

 

[Devin]

The 393W is a good motor. But if you want 400 lbs of Torque, and 350 hp without any fancy parts that will go 200k miles. look at the 400. What Devin said about the injection for a 400 is no longer the case. PME now makes intake plates that will allow you to bolt a Windsor intake directly onto the the big 400. This means that all the injection stuff for the Windsor is now a bolt on for the big C motors. Part # AP34 Works perfect with aussie heads.
Glad I could help cloud the issue.

If I remember correctly, the adapter plates are in the $250 range. You are still tipping the scales back toward even looking at price.

edit: here they are:

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_ap-34__intake_adapter_kit.html

But, Bax is right, you can get some decent numbers out of the 400 without any super fancy parts. Or, drop a bit on some better heads and pistons, and you can get some downright awesome numbers for not much coin, really (compared to how much money you would have to drop to get the W to put out similar numbers).

 

[Phoenix0783]

The best route is getting the crank, rods and pistons as a kit because the crank is balanced for the most part for the parts in the kit. If you want to keep costs down you can go for a kit with hypereutectic pistons. Scat makes good kits and have quite a bit of options. Summit has a couple of Scat kits for about $800 or $900. When you pick a cam just make sure you match the rpm range of it with the rpm range of the heads and intake, no real black magic here. Although, I really like the xtreme energy cams from comp cams.

 

[bax]

Trick flow vs aussie! I just made up the cost of the adapters and I still flow better than the trick flow. Dark side;D Dark side Dark side%) Dark side Dark side:-*
Or you can run the W

If I remember correctly, the adapter plates are in the $250 range. You are still tipping the scales back toward even looking at price.

edit: here they are:

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_ap-34__intake_adapter_kit.html

But, Bax is right, you can get some decent numbers out of the 400 without any super fancy parts. Or, drop a bit on some better heads and pistons, and you can get some downright awesome numbers for not much coin, really (compared to how much money you would have to drop to get the W to put out similar numbers).

 

[bmc69]

Glad I could help cloud the issue.

All concerned..please take note that Bax and Devin ran with the ball this time and I left the thread alone..even though I agree with both of 'em and have the bite marks on my lips (well..er..fingers) to prove how hard it was to restrain myself from posting much the same.;D 408 C's rock.

 

[bax]

All concerned..please take note that Bax and Devin ran with the ball this time and I left the thread alone..even though I agree with both of 'em and have the bite marks on my lips (well..er..fingers) to prove how hard it was to restrain myself from posting much the same.;D 408 C's rock.

I am here to keep BMC out of trouble. See how good I am at it.%) Glad I could help. For the record: Devin started it.

 

[Devin]

I am here to keep BMC out of trouble. See how good I am at it.%) Glad I could help. For the record: Devin started it.

Who, me??? ;D

The Oz 408. 'Tis a beautiful thing.

 

[LowCountryEB]

What do you guys mean by a "400"? Please forgive my ignorance. Can Bax and you others please help me with my other questions in the original post?

 

[Devin]

The Ford 400 is part of the 335 series family of engines (which includes the 351C).

Here is a bit of background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_335_engine

and some more info:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/8/104/article/High_Performance_Options_for_the_351M400_Engine.html

Prior to the 5.4 Mod, I believe that the 400 had the longest stroke of any Ford motor. Can we say torque monster? ;D

 

[bmc69]

What do you guys mean by a "400"? Please forgive my ignorance. Can Bax and you others please help me with my other questions in the original post?

Just playing with you a bit..sort of. The Ford 400 we three are all running is factory 4.00 bore and 4.00 stroke..giving you a 408 ci engine with .030" overbore..i.e same geometry as a 408 Windsor Stroker..for a lot less $ than a stroked 351W. The money you would spend on stroker kit can then be spent on other goodies. Or spend it on a stroker kit for the 400..434..466..all the way to 496 CI if yr feeling real frisky.

But it was probably not relevant to your question since yr looking for 351W solutions..so sorry for the hijack.

 

[LowCountryEB]

Ok. And what do you mean by "oz" or "aussie" ? I called the guy "Jim" at fordstrokers.com today, but didn't hear back. Can I talk to any of you guys on the phone?!?!?.........

 

[Devin]

Ok. And what do you mean by "oz" or "aussie" ? I called the guy "Jim" at fordstrokers.com today, but didn't hear back. Can I talk to any of you guys on the phone?!?!?.........

Oz, or Aussie refers to Australian heads. Australian 302 heads are a sought after upgrade to stock heads on a 400. They breathe great, and they are closed chamber to provide quench, so you can run a higher compression ratio.

 

[00gyrhed]

How much more does the 408 wiegh than the 302?

I was going to stroke a 351W, but growing up we had a 400 in a 72 Ford LTD. With the air cleanerer can flipped, the smog pump disconnected and headers with dual eaxhast that thing ran like a bat of hell, even in that big heavy car.

I have already made this Bronce too heavy so I guess I shouldn't worry about a few more pounds, but I would like to know.

 

[crmoore]

400m

Just a quick question about the 400M. What kind of fit and clearance issues do you have. Do you still need to have 2" body lift to clear with stock hood or do you need more? Do you have to cut fenders or make any other changes to make this work?

 

[bmc69]

351m/400 factory weight is about 575#,,compared to 440 (later) or 460# (early)for the 302 and 510# for the 351W (518# for '69-73). That is all with cast iron intake manny, cst iron exhaust mannys, cast iron water pump and iron heads.

They fit 'OK', but 2" body lift is recommended for sure. The biggest issue, unless you are able to find a smallblock pattern '73 400 block like Bax did, is the need to use a 385-series bell housing (351m/400/439/460 all same there).

The '73 blocks are highly prized by the Pantera crowd as a replacement for the 351C engines they came with. Typucal numbers for naturally aspirated 434 stroker 400 well exceed 500 for both torque and HP..with a torque curve that is so flat its not real.

I think the main point here though, is the comparison of the 408 'C' engine with the 408 W engine..the former being bone stock that way and known to have a very long lifetime expectancy at moderate power levels...350HP and 450 ft-lbs are typical numbers.