351w vs 5.0 coyote

[OX1]

Show me a complete pull out coyote for under $6500. I do mean a complete; engine, harness, computer, all of it.

Engine for $3500

http://www.automotix.net/usedengine...es=433a36c55815f08ae1d0ba62f4d126dc&seq_num=5

Processor-$243

http://www.automotix.net/usedautopa...s=da93ed99075f5c492cd9345d9418ee51&seq_num=21

Trans-$1674

http://www.automotix.net/usedtransm...s=fd8a38042ddab297c70930575d02caea&seq_num=18

Transfer case-$843

http://www.automotix.net/usedautoparts/2011-ford-f_150-transfer_case-inventory.html

So thats $6260 for the entire drivetrain and processor, shipped (no tax , yet!!!). Didn't see harness listed, but I'd guess you could get it from one of those yards.

If cost is the same, I agree go stroker. But I still maintain that motor for $3500 (with like 20K miles on it) will be a grand within 4-5 years with 60-80K miles.

TC probably won't fit, but I think in the not to distant future, that engine/trans combo, basic swap parts, stock proccessor with custom harness, and adapter to maybe a 205 case will be had for around 5 grand, if your patient in buying your parts. There will just be too many of these low mile motors floating around, it will be too attractive, even with the install costs/pains.

 

[WheelHorse]

I think the biggest difference is most DIY'rs can replace a head gasket on a 351, even if they've never attempted something to this level in their life.

This will not be the case for a new Q4 5.0.

 

[OX1]

I think the biggest difference is most DIY'rs can replace a head gasket on a 351, even if they've never attempted something to this level in their life.

This will not be the case for a new Q4 5.0.

Back in 87, when I bought my 86 Capri 5.0, it had idle problems almost from day one. First thing they did was run codes and replace the clutch switch (which had nothing wrong with it), as it gave them a code 67. Even they didn't realize you needed to push in the clutch to not get that code.

So while I agree it is easier to replace a W head gasket than install a new 5.0, it won't be as daunting the task 5 years from now, as it seems right now.

and for that matter, why bother with a 5.0 when you can get a 6.2 for the same money.

http://www.automotix.net/usedengines/2011-ford-f_250_super_duty-used_engines-product-4ui11001x.html

280 ft-lbs to the wheels (@ 2500 RPM) on 35's and regular gas.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/02/ford-raptor-6-2-dynod-again-makes-even-more-power/

 

[apathy]

The accessories are expensive for either engine. I'm talking about cost for the motor/tranny, harness, ECU, and vital accessories (like the drive-by-wire throttle).

http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219378

 

[WheelHorse]

Ox1, install a head gasket on a 351 pushrod vs a quad cam 5L; the 351 would be a lot easier for a DIY'rs.

While hopefully neither would require it, it was just an example I through out there given the current topic of the debate.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Truck motors are not the same as the mustang motors. Truck motors are way cheaper, but what you want is the mustang version.

As for the price list, that is a handful of parts. By no means "complete". Anyone who has ever done an EFI conversion can tell you that all the little nickle and dime parts are where the expense is really at. In this case it is $100 and $500 parts taht add up to kill the budget.

The hot rod article is the only real good cost break down I have really seen. And it does not come in cheap. Yes, as they age and become more common the prices will drop and the knowledge will rise. But that is the future, this is now. You can pay through the nose and be one of the first now, or wait until it is figured out and the price comes down and get it later. But no way are you going to do a good coyote swap on the cheap now. You can cut corners (get a truck engine for example) and be able to wave the flag that you were one of the first. Big whoop. I would rather wait a little and get a good swap.

 

[OX1]

Ox1, install a head gasket on a 351 pushrod vs a quad cam 5L; the 351 would be a lot easier for a DIY'rs.

While hopefully neither would require it, it was just an example I through out there given the current topic of the debate.

OK, agreed. But throughout this whole thread,
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221627
I don't recall anyone saying get rid of that EFI,
because a carb would be much easier for the DIY
(when we all know it would).

Truck motors are not the same as the mustang motors. Truck motors are way cheaper, but what you want is the mustang version.

The whole time the knock on the coyote was it's low end torque, so you don't want the version that has more of it and is 2-3 grand cheaper? (and comes with a computer that runs the 4WD trans already)

 

[WheelHorse]

OK, agreed. But throughout this whole thread,
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221627
I don't recall anyone saying get rid of that EFI,
because a carb would be much easier for the DIY
(when we all know it would).

Well, now, now, let's not go full ricer here. Next thing I know we'll be talking about how there's voodoo happening in the Duraspark module. LOL

Besides, a carb being easier to work on maybe true for 40+ year old guys (or a conversation 20 years ago) regarding ease of service, however, regarding the younger generation, there's a lot of current users who know nothing of how to properly dial in a crude toilet on top of the air pump. Fuel injection will self tune within its parameters; plug n play. Start talking annular discharge and two phased power valves and they think that you may give them an STD.

Of course, I guess the real question is, where's the play area to use that sort of HP? I've yet to find a place where my 90-100 rwhp Bronco hasn't left traffic with nothing more than 1/4 throttle and it's bone stock. What I'm not saying is that I'd beat a Pentastar Wrangler. :-[

 

[Gator809]

Do me a favor and take a carbed classic bronco to your average shop and ask them to tune it. Better yet, get a rebuild kit that isn't universal for about 3 decades of carbs and may or may not fit correctly or have all the required parts.

Now, take a OBD 2 computerized coyote to a shop and have them hook up a computer and tell you what's wrong and go to any parts store or dealership and get the parts to fix it.

I've been in automotive parts and fleet management long enough to have delt with the tail end of carbs, the beginnings of EFI, and current systems. Smog carbs sucked, and finding a mechanic who could make them work was harder. And finding good rebuilt carbs or kits is rediculous. The start of EFI was a learning curve, but now EFI on modern cars is a dream.

To the people who say that there is more electronics to go wrong, how new of a vehicle do you drive? Your wife or family? I bet most of the will go to almost 200k miles without any major repairs or parts replaced.


They say they don't build them like they used to, and thank god their right.

 

[OX1]

Well, now, now, let's not go full ricer here. Next thing I know we'll be talking about how there's voodoo happening in the Duraspark module. LOL

Besides, a carb being easier to work on maybe true for 40+ year old guys (or a conversation 20 years ago) regarding ease of service, however, regarding the younger generation, there's a lot of current users who know nothing of how to properly dial in a crude toilet on top of the air pump. Fuel injection will self tune within its parameters; plug n play. Start talking annular discharge and two phased power valves and they think that you may give them an STD.

Of course, I guess the real question is, where's the play area to use that sort of HP? I've yet to find a place where my 90-100 rwhp Bronco hasn't left traffic with nothing more than 1/4 throttle and it's bone stock. What I'm not saying is that I'd beat a Pentastar Wrangler. :-[

I was merely stating that on the average engine, you can put almost any carb on it and it will run. If you are even slightly reasonable on CFM, most of them will run pretty good out of the box, with just setting choke and idle settings. Will they be tuned? no, but you will never see 8 pages of why someone's carbed engine will not start/run.

I just find it funny how much support there is for windsor EFI (vs a carb), which can be a real PIA sometimes, but how much distain there is for the only cheap, low mileage V-8's there are going to be, soon enough.

As for HP. Plenty of east coast greasy offroad hill climbs that require mega HP. There is no such thing as "crawling" these hills.

 

[WheelHorse]

Do me a favor and take a carbed classic bronco to your average shop and ask them to tune it. Better yet, get a rebuild kit that isn't universal for about 3 decades of carbs and may or may not fit correctly or have all the required parts.

Now, take a OBD 2 computerized coyote to a shop and have them hook up a computer and tell you what's wrong and go to any parts store or dealership and get the parts to fix it.

I've been in automotive parts and fleet management long enough to have delt with the tail end of carbs, the beginnings of EFI, and current systems. Smog carbs sucked, and finding a mechanic who could make them work was harder. And finding good rebuilt carbs or kits is rediculous. The start of EFI was a learning curve, but now EFI on modern cars is a dream.

To the people who say that there is more electronics to go wrong, how new of a vehicle do you drive? Your wife or family? I bet most of the will go to almost 200k miles without any major repairs or parts replaced.


They say they don't build them like they used to, and thank god their right.

So true. I do not miss the 80's GM's with stepper motor, five miles of vacuum lines, FRED, diverter valves, heat risers, M/C solenoids, D screws, sticking exhaust manifold valves, jumpering A-B Lol and then IM240 going into full swing and the people just throwing parts on their cars to get them to pass.

I've given thought to automobiles going the distance and I believe a major factor has been the implementation of over-drive transmissions; of course, better engineering standards and lubricants help as well. Fuel injection atomization over carburetion is another huge factor in not washing down the cylinder walls.

And, like you had mentioned, finding a quality tech back then was hard enough let alone finding one now.

You'll find a lot more EEC IV help on here than those who really understand carbs.

Start talking about dynoing distributors and timing curve strategies and you might find enough people to count through the fingers on one hand.

None of that matters with the plug and play Coyote.

When the kit is finalized, and engines become more available, more will conquer it, but until then, it really only seems to be professional outfits taking on the fabrication | installation.

To add to this, those who are currently having Coyote's installed, aren't going to be concerned about replacing head gasket in their garage because if the need were ever to arise; they'd most likely just break out the plastic.

 

[WheelHorse]

I was merely stating that on the average engine, you can put almost any carb on it and it will run. If you are even slightly reasonable on CFM, most of them will run pretty good out of the box, with just setting choke and idle settings. Will they be tuned? no, but you will never see 8 pages of why someone's carbed engine will not start/run.

I just find it funny how much support there is for windsor EFI (vs a carb), which can be a real PIA sometimes, but how much distain there is for the only cheap, low mileage V-8's there are going to be, soon enough.

As for HP. Plenty of east coast greasy offroad hill climbs that require mega HP. There is no such thing as "crawling" these hills.

Most carbs will run fairly decently out-of-the-box. As soon as there is a problem with a running condition, all of that out-of-the-box goes right out of the window. There are no codes to pull to point these individuals in a certain direction and even when members chime in, 1 out of 5 ever seem to resolve the issue at hand.

I'll give you the off road play ground for HP. For me, being in the wrong state and too close to Chicago, there's no real place for me that requires a demand for 400 crank hp.

 

[apathy]

It's going to be really interesting to see how the different shops working on Coyote installs resolve fit and runability issues. Will we end up using the stock harness from the donor vehicle, or have to pop for the Motorsports Hod Rod Package for $1,500.....

 

[OX1]

Most carbs will run fairly decently out-of-the-box. As soon as there is a problem with a running condition, all of that out-of-the-box goes right out of the window. There are no codes to pull to point these individuals in a certain direction and even when members chime in, 1 out of 5 ever seem to resolve the issue at hand.

But if it gets that bad, $300 shipped and your back to running pretty decent out of the box.

 

[bronco scott]

I saw a dyno sheet 3yrs old for a 351 roller, afr 185 heads, 750 carb, 30 over and a big cam running 463hp and 433tq.
I just built a 351w 60 over, afr 185 heads,rollers,holly 750, all matching componets est. 500hp
C4 with high stall. kit modified valve body and kevlar cluch packs rated for 600hp
My bronco had the 351 and c4 in it to start. new wiring harness, new radiator. new 8 shocks, custom exhaust, the only thing original to my engine is the block, crank and pistions (in order to run pump gas)
p/s pump, alt, battery, hei, all nuts and bolts and brackets......ALL new!
I just paid a shop to do this part of the bill, finished three week ago cost $12,500.00
My bronco will be used more for show and mild trial. So you can cut hp to make yours more trial happy and there is no need to modify the trans for the hp. and save $2000.00
This is old school, easy to work on and lots of avalible parts.

 

[jasonmcc]

I know I'm digging up an old thread here but this is the position I'm currently in and would love to hear how thoughts are several years later.

 

[onpier55]

Seems like the prices still haven’t come down on coyote swaps.

 

[sykanr0ng]

Seems like the prices still haven’t come down on coyote swaps.

The prices will probably finally come down when electric powered self-driving cars are the only thing street legal.

 

[jasonmcc]

I've spoken to two shops who have done Bronco coyote swaps and are familiar with Broncos. Both have tried to sway me away from coyote and more towards 351w/408w. I had the feeling it was because of the possible higher profits on using one of the blocks they already have, meaning margins would be better for them. They were selling it as a coyote swap is 25k+ and a 351w/408w is substantially cheaper. Am I off base here, thoughts?

 

[Broncobowsher]

I've spoken to two shops who have done Bronco coyote swaps and are familiar with Broncos. Both have tried to sway me away from coyote and more towards 351w/408w. I had the feeling it was because of the possible higher profits on using one of the blocks they already have, meaning margins would be better for them. They were selling it as a coyote swap is 25k+ and a 351w/408w is substantially cheaper. Am I off base here, thoughts?

You are off base.
The 351/408 is much less expensive but not for the reasons you assume. The fact it bolts in pretty much without any modifications, bolts to transmissions that are normally found in Broncos, pretty much a stock replacement.
Coyote still needs adapting. They don't just bolt in. You have to go through kits or a lot of your own fabrication to get them in there.

If the shop was trying to make a buck, there is more profit to be had in doing a coyote. A lot more parts to sell you, at a mark up. And a lot more labor to charge you as well.

A 408 swap is a weekend project, a Coyote would be a full week, if you could devote a full week to it non-stop and could source all the little bits that will hold you up.