4 kinds of automotive batteries now?

[chrlsful]

Done a lill reading. Has been educational but still lots of Qs.
It seems (4 me) the more choices = more confusion. I want good & better (can't afford the best).

When thinking abt battery choices I think of needs. I like the ability to stack batteries on their side (AGM don't leak) as the bronk gets a lill tight under the hood. I have an ele winch, would like to mod up 2 batteries for heavy duty occasions. The rig sets for a good while between uses - then heavy use (ele/hydo sno plow, welding duty, winching may B all w/in a few min). There's lith-ion, gel, agm, led-acid and even a few more. Can they be mixed (may B a gel for aux & agm for primary)? Do I need different chargers (maintainence'n quick charge/start if dead). What can the more informed tell us to help the less informed (me).

Thnx !!

 

[knack]

I'm a big fan of the AGM batteries. I happen to have a Sears Diehard, but I don't think the brand matters much. As with any battery that sits a lot, some sort of battery maintaining charger is a good idea. Lead acid is fine by me too, but as you said, it's nice not to worry about anything leaking.
I've been burned a few times trying the latest technologies in a battery. Last experience was with a very expensive motorcycle battery. Don't know what was inside, but the battery weighed almost nothing. Ionized marshmallow cream or something. Great battery until it was discharged by accident. No way to bring the thing back when it was totally dead. I don't want to do the testing on some of this new stuff. I'll stick with more mature technologies.

 

[chrlsful]

thnx 4 da post-back!
yeah, the technology's got me right now. If ur motocy bat was lith-ion I thought those were 1 of the best "to come back"?

 

[DirtDonk]

From your description, I'd use AGM only (for all the usual reasons) and if possible, two of the same make and model and age just because that can be better depending on how you hook up your dual system.
It's not a 100% requirement, but it can help in some situations.

Lead-acid (liquid) is out because you can't lay it over.
Gel is out (to me) because they're more rare, a bit finicky, and likely just as expensive for what I believe is still going to be a shorter life than AGM.
Li-Ion is out for me just because it's new and still relatively un-tried in automotive conditions. Lightweight is great, but I've had bad luck with both motorcycle and emergency jumper box types and am not ready to jump ship yet. And besides, Ionized marshmallow cream is not good for the complexion!;D

For me it's all about AGM from a tried-and-true technology and good performance. They usually cost more, but so far for me that's been a low-cost benefit because (again, for me) so far they've all outlasted regular lead-acid batteries by more than 2:1 and counting.
I'm just retiring my last Optima Red Top by putting it in a car I'm selling. It's still working and just turned 11 years old.

No more free-floating acid (AGM's are actually lead-acid batteries, but it's "contained" so to speak) for me even though I try not to lay them on their side.
And so far I don't know of a better performing, longer lasting battery design on the market.

But because that's just my own personal experiences, I'll add the word "Yet" to that last sentence.

Paul

 

[chrlsful]

thnx Paull. Esp 4 the extra data (new 2 me).

Yeah, I'm gettin that response elsewhere (but not winchers, etc - straight automotive drivers). 35 yrs of development is payin off. Just don't know bout the colors (yellow, blue + $200 plus costs) or Other Brands (non-Optima) autocraft, duralast, diehard, etc...

 

[DirtDonk]

Even a regular ("starting") AGM battery is typically capable of more discharge than a regular lead acid type of the same function. That would be the Red Top of Optima fame, and many others.

For sitting long periods or for heavy use where draining is a possibility, a Deep-Cycle version (Yellow Top in Optima-speak) is considered desirable. But it's not an absolute necessity either.
And neither one likes to sit for long periods un-used, so what was already mentioned about using a maintainer of some kind (specifically geared towards AGM batteries of course) is almost an absolute necessity.
And I have two Dead Tops (expensive Blue Top Optimas) to prove that fact!

I even have a maintainer and never bothered to hook it up. Instead I kept convincing myself that I would be installing them sometime soon, so didn't bother. BIIIGGGG MISTAKE on my part. Even at a great deal, that was $400 worth of batteries I'll never get good use out of.
So whether it's in the vehicle or on the shelf, keep them charged properly.

Lots of those brands are good. Odyssey has a great rep, and I have one in my '68 that Doug put in, but I probably would not buy one normally due to their higher initial cost, and the fact that they're not everywhere for warranty work if you need them. I like Sears, but we've seen which way that's going (though warranties will eventually still be covered by someone most likely) and a few other brands. When it comes down to it, I think there are only three actual manufacturers of these batteries. If that's the case, then it likely doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you get their "good" one with more CCA's and longer RC's and pay the extra.
I usually go as large as possible in my application. I can totally understand why Doug put an Odyssey in the '68 though, as with all the Explorer stuff and moving the battery to the driver's side there wasn't as much room as their used to be. And the Odyssey's are known for packing a lot of punch into a smaller package.

Paul

 

[Broncobowsher]

For the most part you are still dealing with lead acid batterys. There are tweaks on the acid side to contain it (gel, mat) but functionally it is still just a lead acid battery.

Lithium batteries are a different story. Even then there are a LOT of formulas. In general these are real fussy about charging and limiting discharge. You can't treat them anything like a lead acid battery.

The only Lithium derivative that works halfway decent for a 12V lead acid battery I have seen is the LiPOFe (or something like that). Often called Lithium-iron batteries. Motorcycles will use them. They don't have great capacity, about a third the reserve of a lead acid battery. But the cranking amps are massive. You don't want too much charging capacity, there are limits to how fast to charge the battery. This is where motorcycles are great as they typically have a pretty small charging system. They also don't like cold. A well known trait of them is not starting cold unless you warm the battery up first. The internal resistance of the battery goes up when cold. So the trick is to turn on the headlight for a couple minutes. That puts a load on the battery (but not too much) to heat it internally, then you can start the bike. But they are super light.

At this point I don't see Lithium-iron that good on a trail rig. But for a lightweight rig that only needs starting power, possible.

Lead still wins. Just the acid control (gel or AGM) are the only way I will buy batteries anymore.

 

[Apogee]

Lead-acid batteries are going to be around for a very long time. They're relatively inexpensive, environmentally friendly (99%+ recyclable), and very capable. Modern AGM battery technologies have made for some very good batteries for off-road rigs. I wouldn't go the Gel route unless you had a very specific need for the performance characteristics those offer...that separator material reminds me of the absorbant pads they put under meat at the grocery, and it isn't nearly as robust as an AGM separator material where the cells have a much higher compression in the case.

 

[77RHINO]

X2 on what Paul said about CCA's.

I can't comment on the types of batteries, but I can say from experience on newer vehicles that if you get a battery with a low CCA rating you can have all kinds of electrical issues until you get one that is equal to/higher than what your vehicle's minimum rating is. My 2010 Tahoe would die 2x/day after I installed that battery (that "fit" per the parts store) and it took replacing the alternator (that was still good) and performing a parasitic drain test to prove I needed a higher rated battery. Since the battery read "ok" on the part store tester, they wouldn't warranty a full replacement. But when I asked to "upgrade", they charged me the difference between the batteries and I haven't had a problem since.

The amount of electronics in that 9-year old vehicle is incredible, and researching electronics issues on modern cars is about like googling health problems.

 

[chrlsful]

so - no mix'n match (1 primary, 1 2ndary), & get a new (specific 4 the) AGM battery maintainer. My current is just a lill $15 trickle charger frm back when only "leads" were round (never hada optima - Y or R, B is too expensive) buy each @ same X. My "quick charge/start" plugin-110-outlet shoulld still wrk I guess? I think I'll B stackin on eachother/on sides in the pass's side air intake w/cables to rear & frnt winch recievers & multiple other accessories...

 

[DirtDonk]

I've charged many an AGM with my old Sears/Schauer dumb charger. But there's enough written about the benefits of having one with the proper settings that I would get one at some point.
Especially as a maintainer I believe, but at least as a charger. Just make sure to keep them charged.

Paul

 

[Broncobowsher]

I have no issues mixing and matching lead acid batteris of different flavors (flooded, gel, AGM) while running. Mixing while off (typical diesel battery with both positives tied solidly together) I am not a fan. Well known that they will fight each other just a little. Under the supervision of an active charging system, not a problem. But when the two are left to there own they pick on each other.

 

[Apogee]

...Under the supervision of an active charging system, not a problem. But when the two are left to there own they pick on each other.

Sounds like my kids %)

 

[chrlsful]

batteries in a "wrk truck" EB

I have no issues mixing and matching lead acid batteris of different flavors (flooded, gel, AGM) while running. Mixing while off (typical diesel battery with both positives tied solidly together) I am not a fan. Well known that they will fight each other just a little. Under the supervision of an active charging system, not a problem. But when the two are left to there own they pick on each other.

Parallel or series? (I'm dumb)

So ur saying a 'mix' is alright. I wuz thinkin AGM 4 da accessories & lead-acid (or regular, whatever is the proper name 4 the ol style) for start/run (chargin the AGM).

 

[Broncobowsher]

Parallel and you stay 12V
Series and you now have 24V, not really usable in a Bronco.

Mix, much like a motorhome. They run a starting battery to start the engine. And a deep cycle "house" battery to run the lights in the living quarters with the engine off. When the engine is running the alternator charges them all together.

The correct term for the old school lead acid battery, the kind that has liquid acid that can spill, is a "flooded cell battery". It is acid just poured in flooding the lead plates. The acid isn't in a "gel" form. Nor is it held in an "Absorbed Glass Mat".

 

[Steve83]

For the added cost of "exotic" batteries, you're better off just using common flooded lead-acid for every vehicle application. Spend that extra money on the BEST flooded battery: MotorCraft TestedToughMax. For the best warranty service, pay a few bucks extra to get the dealership to install it. Interstate MTP is essentially identical, but you're not going to find an Interstate dealer in as many cities as you will Ford dealers. Deka gel cells are arguably as good as flooded, but again: where are you going to warranty it when you have trouble? AGMs are inferior to flooded in every way EXCEPT when you punch a hole in the case - but I'm not paying extra for a crappier battery just in case I drive through a war zone. Dry cells don't come close to flooded performance, & it takes a complicated/expensive charging/discharging system to properly control a Lithium pack.

Ford knows what works best for the money, and they still aren't putting AGMs in at the factory. BXT-65-850 is your best investment.


(phone app link)

If you really think you need another, put it underneath, between the t-case & gas tank.


EDIT: I worded that poorly above. By "every vehicle application", I meant every battery on a normal-cranking vehicle; not every kind of vehicle.

 

[Nothing Special]

Parallel or series? (I'm dumb)

So ur saying a 'mix' is alright. I wuz thinkin AGM 4 da accessories & lead-acid (or regular, whatever is the proper name 4 the ol style) for start/run (chargin the AGM).

Broncobowsher is already saying this, but to be at least wordier if not more clear...

One way to run dual batteries is to just connect the second one directly to the first, positive to positive and negative to negative (in parallel). This is how a lot of diesel pickups are wired. This gives more cranking amps, but isn't a redundant system. Also if the batteries aren't pretty much the same they can tend to discharge each other when sitting there. You probably don't want to wire your Bronco this way for your needs.

Another is to still wire them in parallel, but isolated from each other. Hook the negatives together but connect the positives through a relay, or an isolation diode. This is how most motorhomes are set up. You keep the first battery connected to the normal vehicle functions and connect the accessories to the second battery. That gives you a redundant system so if your accessories drain the (second) battery when the engine is shut off you can still start it with the first battery. This is probably what you want.

If you do this you can use different types of battery, but rather than "lead-acid" for the main and AGM for the secondary I'd more think of a starting battery for the main and a deep cycle or marine starting battery for the secondary. Starting batteries are really good for delivering a lot of amps to run a starter motor, but they don't like to be run down and will quit holding a charge if you run them down much. Deep cycle batteries are good at being run down ("deep cycled") and recharged without losing their ability to hold a charge, but they aren't as good at providing a lot of current all at once. A marine starting battery is in between, OK at starting and OK at deep cycling, but not great at either. Your welder would love a deep cycle, the winch I'm less sure of, but a marine starting might be best there.

Once you decide on which of those three battery types you want you can choose any of them in "lead-acid" or AGM.

 

[chrlsful]

"flooded cell battery"
ahhh, yeah, saw that in the littrature.
OK, OK, sounds good (as the agm is pricy for me). I like the 4 'posts' on the Optima Yellow & think it's the 2ndary 4 me.

This is very helpful. Thanks for the posts (not the 1st X bowser or Paul have helped me out over the yrs) ~
Lot more friendly here than a decade ago (esp to da i6 guys!).

 

[tirewater]

Ford knows what works best for the money, and they still aren't putting AGMs in at the factory. BXT-65-850 is your best investment.

Ford uses AGM batteries in their vehicles. I believe mostly in the start stop vehicles. Start stop technologies put undue strain on standard batteries, and reduce their lifespan. AGM batteries are typically used in vehicles that utilize start stop. The 2018 F150 uses the BAGM-49H8-850 battery.

AGM batteries have their place. They handle vibrations well, tend not to leak, store well, etc... The biggest benefit for a classic car is that they're not going to leak, or off gas (as much, the still do) and cause corrosion issues.

The problem with our vehicles and AGMs is that their overall higher voltage prevents them from being fully charged and it reduces the life span of the battery. Unless you regularly charge them with an AGM specific charger.

 

[Broncobowsher]

AGM is becoming a common OEM battery these days by a lot of manufacturers.
Dual batteries (the second being a small motorcycle sized one) are getting common as well, used for cars that have the idle stop feature.