4 kinds of automotive batteries now?

[chrlsful]

hi Tim, throw up dat NH (or is it the great state of ME?).

 

[Timmy390]

I put an AGM on my 4 wheeler back 2 plus years ago and it's WAY better than the standard batterer I replaced. It sits from hunting season to season and it fires right up. Has a higher cranking amp rating and longer reserve rating than the standard battery I was replacing every couple years. The AGM was $10 more.....Wal Mart brand AGM

For All my cars and trucks (I have 7) and even my boat (deep cycle and starting), I use the standard lead acid batteries from Wal Mart and they have never let me down. They last for years and just keep going. I can't justify the extra price of putting AGM's or any other batteries like them on my rigs due to the cost. My boat batteries get the hell beat out of them.......

Don't get me wrong, I want to put AGM's and might start with my boat deep cycle's in the next year or so.

Tim

 

[rguest3]

I have become a Big fan of Odyssey Batteries. Although not cheap, they have never let me down.

If you are going with a Dual Battery set-up, look into Blue Sea (Mostly Marine Products). They have an ACR (Automatic Control Relay) that automatically controls which battery (House or Accessory) is being used when the vehicle is turned off and will separate the two if needed.

With the vehicle off, If the Accessory Battery is being used for Lights, Winch, Compressor, ect. and using charge the ACR separates the two and the House or Main starting battery is not drained as all. The circuit is actually tripped. When you start the vehicle the circuit is reconnected and both Batteries are in charge mode again.

The ACR connects to each Positive battery post. I also use the inline fuses from Blue Sea. Each Battery has a 200AMP breaker at the Positive post where the ACR connection is for added safety.

 

[chrlsful]

more ideas, thnx!

 

[crankman]

I put in 2 Diehard AGM batteries in 2008 wired in parallel in my 76. I keep a NOCO charger on them 24/7, bronco gets driven once a week. There still in great condition.

 

[Steve83]

I like the 4 'posts' on the Optima Yellow...

Do some research - on many 4-terminal batteries, one set is for cranking, and the other set is only for low-current accessories. The connection between the terminals inside is NOT necessarily strong enough for cranking or winching on the additional terminals.

...in the start stop vehicles.

If your eB is start-stop, then use a start-stop-ready battery. But for the same reason I'm not talking about the giant Lithium battery in an electric or hybrid; I'm not talking about start-stop vehicle batteries. I'm only talking about normal-cranking vehicles, and Ford doesn't put AGMs in them.

...off gas (as much, the still do)...

That's a myth - AGMs use the exact same chemistry as flooded cells, so they outgas exactly as much under the same conditions. But outgassing is a SYMPTOM (of high current) - not a CAUSE of other problems. The gas coming off is either Hydrogen or water vapor.

...cause corrosion issues.

That's an effect of how the case is molded to the terminals - not the cell construction. A quality flooded cell doesn't leak acid around its terminals either. But a poorly-made AGM can corrode its terminals just like any other cheap battery.

...AGMs is that their overall higher voltage...

Another myth. Same chemistry means same voltage. The difference is in how the battery responds to charging or discharging current (internal heat).

But none of that changes the fact that AGMs are overpriced and don't perform any better in this application.

 

[chrlsful]

"... on many 4-terminal batteries, one set is for cranking, and the other set is only for low-current accessories. The connection between the terminals inside is NOT necessarily strong enough for cranking on the additional terminals...."
mmm, what duz that mean 4 my idea of linkin the two batteries? Use only top terminals to link the batteries'n go out to accessories on the low posts? (Also "cranking on" is this in the 'tighten' sense or the 'cranking' CCA/starting sense)? Sorry, just clarity needed...

 

[tirewater]

I'm not talking about start-stop vehicle batteries. I'm only talking about normal-cranking vehicles, and Ford doesn't put AGMs in them.

You made a blanket statement, so thanks for correcting it.

I didn't state any 'myths', other than not clarifying that sealed VRLA AGM batteries have a pressure valve that prevents gas from escaping under certain conditions. Internally it does gas - and in overcharge conditions gas will escape from it.

I'm not talking about corrosion at the terminals, but corrosion from acid leaks. Certainly higher quality batteries will mitigate this through better construction.

Cell construction plays a role as well as chemistry.

But none of that changes the fact that AGMs are overpriced and don't perform any better in this application.

No need to get huffy. I agree with you. AGMs are ridiculously overpriced and another symptom of an industry taking advantage of consumer lack of information.

 

[Apogee]

...AGMs are ridiculously overpriced and another symptom of an industry taking advantage of consumer lack of information.

What makes you say they're overpriced? I'm just curious, because having worked in numerous battery plants for the first 7 years of my career (East Penn MFG/DEKA, JCI, Hawker/Odyssey, etc), I can say that there's a lot more care and handling that goes into making an AGM battery than a flooded cell. Due to the delicate nature of the AGM separator material, all of the groups much be handled horizontally instead of vertically prior to the COS machine, making the group creation process slower and more difficult, meaning more costly machines and slower production rates (more labor). Any little skew, ding or damage to the AGM material within the group/cell can lead a dead short and defective battery.

That said, the flooded cell batteries I've run in my life have usually died prematurely due to vibration related causes, so I run AGM batteries in my rigs with excellent results.

I do remember a few flooded cell batteries made by EPM/DEKA that potted the bottom of the groups/cells in hot-melt glue injected into the bottom of the case just prior to the cast-on strap process, but those were all big batteries that looked like something for a semi or school bus, not anything in a case size for a normal SLI automotive application.

Tobin

 

[Broncobowsher]

Considering the added life I have seen with AGM over a flooded cell battery, the AGM costs more up front but is a better value in the long term. Without a doubt. The AGMs I have had in the past ~12 years have outlasted the flooded cells by at least 2:1. The AGM failure tends to be a gradual decline where a flooded cell tends to be a lot more sudden. That's without counting the corrosion damage from the flooded cells (terminals, trays, fender liners...)

 

[tirewater]

My (bad) experience is with Optima batteries in my land cruiser. They failed within two years. On the other hand, people seemed to really love the Sears Diehard Platinum AGMs of the same time frame (late '00s).

I believe Johnson Controls makes Optima now. Did you have experience with Optima when you were at JCI? Would the work entailed require a 180-200% price premium over a standard lead acid battery?

I know it comes down to what people will pay, so in this sense the manufacturers cost of the battery is irrelevant because some people will pay more than others.

What makes you say they're overpriced? I'm just curious, because having worked in numerous battery plants for the first 7 years of my career (East Penn MFG/DEKA, JCI, Hawker/Odyssey, etc), I can say that there's a lot more care and handling that goes into making an AGM battery than a flooded cell. Due to the delicate nature of the AGM separator material, all of the groups much be handled horizontally instead of vertically prior to the COS machine, making the group creation process slower and more difficult, meaning more costly machines and slower production rates (more labor). Any little skew, ding or damage to the AGM material within the group/cell can lead a dead short and defective battery.

That said, the flooded cell batteries I've run in my life have usually died prematurely due to vibration related causes, so I run AGM batteries in my rigs with excellent results.

I do remember a few flooded cell batteries made by EPM/DEKA that potted the bottom of the groups/cells in hot-melt glue injected into the bottom of the case just prior to the cast-on strap process, but those were all big batteries that looked like something for a semi or school bus, not anything in a case size for a normal SLI automotive application.

Tobin

 

[DirtDonk]

I will never buy another non-AGM battery unless I'm just throwing something cheap into a car for sale.
The last two were not Optimas however. In spite of my fantastic experiences with every one (six at last count) I just can't justify the price, just for price's sake. Or for the name.
But since my first in about '90, nobody can ever say I didn't get my money's worth from each and every one of them though. I think I paid $110 for my first, where a comparable (performance on paper) flooded battery at about the same time was approx $70, with discounted ones going for maybe $55 or so? Similar ratio it seems, with a little more increases at the top end as usual.

I did pay almost the same price as an Optima recently, but it was for a mondo-monster X2 from Batteries+Bulbs. Forget which group, but it's larger than the 24 and has something like 1100cca and 140min RC if I remember. Should do the job, but only time will tell how long it lasts.

But the one before that was an AGM from a local auto store made by one of the big companies (Deka maybe?) and I think I paid $150 or so. Which is not enough more than a high-performance long warranty flooded cell battery to keep me from doing it. I can save up money later, but knowing I won't ruin the paint (again!) alone is worth every penny to me.

And no, I don't like paying $200, or $300, or more for a car battery any more than anybody else. And I don't like paying $500,000, or $1.5m for a house either, but a lot of people do it. And surprise to me, apparently the days of $49 1000cca lifetime warranty batteries, and .89 cent quarts of motor oil and .79cents gallon of gas are long gone.
Who knew, lead and plastic would be so expensive!

Paul

 

[Broncobowsher]

The days of the standard $49 battery and the better $59 battery are over. I know a wholesaler of car batteries, new and used. He is having a hard time with it now as well. (for reference, he had the contract to scrap all the batteries out of the GM EV-1 electric cars, not a small operation) In the past you could stock the shelves with about a dozen batteries and that covered all but the most obscure cars. Now it is rare to have a modern car that uses any of the old battery sizes. Everyone is moving into the specialized batteries if they want to or not.

Last year I bought 3 batteries. The daily driver where the stock battery lasted 8 months, and the forums are will known for standard batteries to barely make it the 2 or 3 years of the warranty, I replaced the nearly 8 year old AGM after a slow crank one winter morning. I had abused that battery as well. I ran it flat a few times (don't leave the ARB fridge plugged in and set to freeze after a grocery store run). The boat battery was right at 10 years old. I still have it, still works, but the boat is only set up as a single battery and I decided it was just a good idea. That was another AGM (both Oddessey, one Diehard branded when they sold them). Neither of those batteries were truly dead. The third was a flooded cell that was maybe 3 years old. It still started the truck, but the lights got a lot brighter once it started. Put a volt meter on it. Running voltage was good, resting voltage was about 11V. And if you were messing around much you better put a charger on it. That one the hold down and the cables were all starting to corrode.
I'm now running a mix of NorthStar and Oddessey batteries. If I need to buy another battery in the next 7-8 years it is probably because I bought a new project.

For the Optimas, I was a huge fan until about 15 years ago. Started getting bad ones, a lot of them. So did everyone else. Jumped ship. That was when Optima first got bought out and was moved from Colorado to Mexico. Riding on reputation. I hear they turned around and are good again. I was burned too many times. I have bought one since, because they were the only ones that made that size AGM for a car that I owned for 7 months. I still don't plan to own any more.

 

[Steve83]

Use only top terminals to link the batteries'n go out to accessories on the low posts?

Depends on how each particular battery is built - that's why you have to research it. If the side posts are the heavy terminals on that one, use them for the big loads. If they have a strong link, use either. If the tops are the heavy ones, use the sides for low-current accys.

...the 'cranking' CCA/starting sense)?

This. "...cranking or winching..." meaning high current.

I'm not talking about corrosion at the terminals, but corrosion from acid leaks.

Acid leaks around the terminals - that's why they corrode. If it leaks anywhere else, the case is ruptured, and the battery is trash (even an AGM).

What makes you say they're overpriced? ...there's a lot more care and handling that goes into making an AGM battery than a flooded cell. Due to the delicate nature of the AGM separator material, all of the groups much be handled horizontally instead of vertically prior to the COS machine, making the group creation process slower and more difficult, meaning more costly machines and slower production rates (more labor).

The same thing that made everyone say that other car brands were overpriced when Ford revolutionized the industry. The fact that someone puts more effort into making something doesn't increase its value, over a competing item that performs better and is made with less effort/labor/material.

The AGMs I have had in the past ~12 years have outlasted the flooded cells by at least 2:1.

Think back carefully - were ANY of those flooded cells MotorCraft, Interstate, or DieHard Gold? Because all others are substantially inferior, and not worth their price. I've had a little MC in my riding mower for about 5 years now (when I got sick of buying junk mower batteries every other year, and soldered on automotive terminals), and it still cranks fine every time. The Interstate MTP I just took out of my wrecked CV is about the same age, and working perfectly. It'll probably go into the '93 (if I can ever afford to get it painted). The 2 MCs in the '83 are a little younger, but working hard & doing fine. The '98 MGM has a MC battery that I put in about 7 years ago.