Alignment Spec Check After New C Bushings & WH Y to T Conversion

[BGBronco]

Specs: 76, C4, WH 1.5" Lift, No body lift.

Just finished switching from what I'm assuming were the original C Bushings to 4 Degree Bushings. My caster is now + 5 degrees so that was a big change from what I had before.

I also just converted from Y to T Steering using the the Wild Horses Swap. Overall this made a difference and definitely tightened up the steering.

I am experiencing some unpredictability / randomness in the steering and wondering if this is alignment related or maybe based on the fact that I do have some slight play in my steering box. I'm currently not running a stabilizer.

Thank you.

 

[DirtDonk]

First thing you need to do is loosen all three adjuster sleeves and rotate the centerlink "upward" so that the grease fitting hole on the lower draglink end points up at an approx. 60° angle. Kind of at the bottom of the radiator so to speak.

This angle is actually more important than most think.
Not only does it put the push/pull motion at a more natural position, but also serves to raise the lower end of the draglink to get a more parallel angle with the trackbar.

Start there and see what you get.
But the next thing you will need is a dropped pitman arm for a full-size truck.
Talk to you about that more later.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Looking at yours more closely, you could possibly get away with simply drilling a new hole, just slightly higher up, for the upper trackbar bolt.
The purpose of this new hole, OR the slightly dropped pitman arm, is to get the draglink and trackbar more parallel.
Keeping the two links as close to parallel, and as close to the same length, and as close to the same pivoting planes as possible goes a long way to making your steering feel more tight and happy.

Basically you're using a '66 to '75 linkage, on a '76 or '77 frame with a larger upper trackbar bracket. Can't keep things parallel as easily that way. Sorry you missed our discussions about just that characteristic. Been done many times, but usually with the pitman arm WH #791275 that has less drop on it than a pitman arm meant for the Early Broncos.

In your case though, it looks almost as if you won't need the pitman arm at all because you'll be so close. The only way to know for sure though is to rotate the tie-rod like described previously and see where the joints end up.
If you do end up using a pitman arm, you will need one of the tapered sleeves on this page: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/category/s?keyword=taper to bring the size of the larger hole down to the size of the smaller '76/'77 size upper draglink end.

Just like most other things with these old trucks, simple bolt-on kits are not always just bolt-ons!
Some people get away with it, but I think most see an improvement by changing the angles. And the lower you get your angles overall (like by using the pitman arm instead of drilling a new hole) the more the improvement.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and yes those are fantastic caster numbers! As we've found over the years, the people with the '76's and especially the '77's, start off with higher numbers to begin with.
I've got 7 degree bushings in my '71 and barely had over 3 degrees with the 2" lift. Now with the 3.5" I'm barely making 2 degrees.

Paul

 

[BGBronco]

I'll start as you suggest. I wish I would have known about the other dynamics / drop pitman arm in this specific swap, it sounded like plug and play, especially since I barely have a lift. It would be great to have this included in the kit or as a recommendation for others but like you said, it's all different. Thank you.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, you've got really good #s on that alignment. After you spin the center link up you will probably feel an improvement.
So what tire pressures are you running. Many guys run too high. Don't be afraid to try lowering the pressure below 30 psi and less.
What kind of issue do you feel? Is it on bumps, or going into or coming out of a turn.
If the ball joints were replaced you may have an upper ball joint sleeve issue.
If it was my Bronco and nothing else was fixing it I might try a very small toe in adjustment, less then 1/4 turn in on each side.
Good luck

 

[DirtDonk]

...I wish I would have known about the other dynamics / drop pitman arm in this specific swap, it sounded like plug and play, especially since I barely have a lift. It would be great to have this included in the kit or as a recommendation for others but like you said, it's all different. Thank you.

Yes, I agree with that. Sorry it's not at least listed as a "what if" or (if you're a computer programmer) a "if this, then that" scenario.
At least you would then have the choice to have other parts on hand if they end up being needed.

Even when notified though, most customers in the past opted to save money up front and then buy added parts later if needed. Rather than sending them back if they end up not being used.
I understand that mindset too, but I'm more of a have-it-if-needed kind of guy. Especially when it's someone else's money I'm recommending be spent!%)
I know... Easy for me, and all that.

I think we've seen more and more people opt for the changes lately though. Probably more and more Bronco owners are getting more and more particular about just how their rigs handle on the street, and are more and more savvy about what should be expected even from an old utility vehicle like a Bronco.
Those that change their steering to the stronger Inverted-T style strictly for more reliability off-road and who don't care as much about how it works on the street are getting fewer and farther between. For the most part the opposite is true now. They're 100% street-driven and off-road reliability is not a concern.

I'll see if I can put some text together that makes sense and get it past the sensors;D to get up on the website.
It would be a start at least.

Paul

 

[BGBronco]

B RON CO - I'm at 28 psi all around.

Paul - I'm not complaining as much as noting that when people start talking about drop pitman arms, drop track bar brackets, lifts, etc it really seems to be focused on 2.5" recommended and 3.5" + as mandatory.

In my case with a 1.5" lift, my Y steering set up was good enough. I wanted better and was really expecting a simple / direct swap the way it was described and it looks like I ended up taking a step backwards. Back to work with the adjustments and I'll report back! Thank you!

 

[75MIKE]

I feel your pain. I tried my hardest to get the T steering to work with a 2 inch lift.
Tired of fighting it and went back to the inverted Y. Huge improvement, never looking back.

 

[Bronco4x4]

What about the center link distance from the tie rod end? I have the same WH kit and there is no was starting point provided on this. The photo shows a lot of threads showing. I am currently setting up a project EB with the same WH kit. I referenced my finished '69EB and am using 37" from the center link to the tie rod end centerline (driver side). My '69 has a 3.5" lift and drives fine. Back then, I did the old school fix by cutting and extending the factory T style tie rod (with external sleeve) based on a friend's EB dimensions at the time. I'm wondering if the center link dimension being off may be adding to his problem.

 

[BGBronco]

I'm hoping I get this worked out otherwise I'll be making the return trip to the Y steering.

The other issue I am having is that my steering wheel center is constantly changing .... for example, after I turn right, my steering wheel center moves to the 2 o'clock position. Very strange.

 

[DirtDonk]

...Paul - I'm not complaining as much as noting that when people start talking about drop pitman arms, drop track bar brackets, lifts, etc it really seems to be focused on 2.5" recommended and 3.5" + as mandatory.

No problem, not taking it as a complaint at all. Just reasonable questioning of policy, procedure and practice.
Good wake up for me to see if I can do something to make it a more smooth transition in the future.

But to be clear here, the need for a dropped pitman arm has NOTHING to do with the lift in this case.
Yes, I like dropped arms and brackets even with 2.5" lifts, as I have mentioned here many times before. But as has always been the case, the general industry recommended area for their use is still 3.5 and above range. For a 1.5" lift even I don't usually recommend the drops just for stock linkage.
In your case, it's not the amount of lift, it's the fact that you're using steering linkage with different steering geometry than your trackbar bracket was designed for originally. In other words, it's simply to match your trackbar angle to the new, now-different draglink angle.
This change, and the recommendation of a non-Bronco pitman arm without any kind of a trackbar drop, is due to that much larger existing factory bracket on your frame.
The full-size arm has less drop than the EB arm does, so is a better match for the new linkage.

With such a modest lift though, instead of spending more money on a pitman arm and shim, why not see if you can drill a hole slightly higher up in the existing upper bracket instead? If it's flat inside like it looks, it should be pretty straightforward to match the angles once you have the tie-rod rotated.

That way you match the angle of the new draglink and, in theory at least, only have to drill one hole. Well, two holes because it's a double-shear mount with a front and a back side.
If that's achievable with your bracket, that would be a great way to fine-tune the angles.
I've never done one on a factory bracket, but have fiddled with the angles by drilling new holes on aftermarket drop brackets, and it can work pretty well when the bracket cooperates.
And if ultimately you decide to go back to the old Y-linkage, you simply put your trackbar back in the original hole. Less additional cost, and maybe less hassle too.

Maybe someone here has done just that and can comment. Not sure I've seen it done, but we've talked about it many times over the years.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

I feel your pain. I tried my hardest to get the T steering to work with a 2 inch lift.
Tired of fighting it and went back to the inverted Y. Huge improvement, never looking back.

How did you end up with an Inverted-Y linkage Mike? You put a later model front end under your '75 for the disc brakes or something like that?
Or was that on a different Bronco?

Paul

 

[75MIKE]

Knuckles out with disc brake set up off a 76 so had to go with the inverted Y to make everything fit.

 

[DirtDonk]

What about the center link distance from the tie rod end? I have the same WH kit and there is no was starting point provided on this.

The photo would just be a general image. You don't normally set it by the number of threads even if you have an existing one laying next to it, since these are not stock items. They are custom made tie-rods with nothing in common to the stock ones.

And the actual distance not only depends on what you have for an axle, but the final toe-in setting might be different for many different Broncos due to tweaked housings, amount of lift, which knuckles are used (stock, full-size, GM, Ford, etc) and and the size of your tires. So there really is no one set length for every Bronco.
And in some cases a general length recommendation might be way off of what's needed.

Still, it would not be a bad idea to at least give a starting point "for a stock Bronco" at least. But I think the lack of coming up with and listing one, is due to the assumption on our part that most customers have an existing one to match up when they take it off.
With more and more Broncos being bought as projects (Bronco-in-a-box so to speak) having a starting point would certainly make final adjustments of toe-in easier though.

I am currently setting up a project EB with the same WH kit. I referenced my finished '69EB and am using 37" from the center link to the tie rod end centerline (driver side). My '69 has a 3.5" lift and drives fine.

If your '69 and the new one are using the same front end, then you are indeed using the perfect starting point. You still have to fine-tune the final toe-in once it's on the ground, but you should not have to go too far.
Unless the tire size is different, or any other component is not the same.

I'm wondering if the center link dimension being off may be adding to his problem.

That's an excellent point. That length is the toe-in, and yes, that is a huge difference in how a Bronco feels on the road. Our assumption out here is that the toe-in is set properly, but even "proper" has a range as each one is different.
And then again, I still don't know my angles from a hole in the ground. I still use fractions of an inch as my toe-in reference points. Not degrees, like is on the printout in the first post.

We've had some pretty good discussions recently with members figuring out the measurement based on the angle and the actual tire measurement (not the sidewall number) and could convert BG's to inches.
I think someone made a chart even. That would be a good thing to reference here too.
If the tires are closer to stock, then using the stock angle is probably fine. But if the tires are much larger than stock, a modified toe-in setting might be called for.

And speaking of which... BGBronco, do you have an alignment printout from before the swap by any chance?

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Knuckles out with disc brake set up off a 76 so had to go with the inverted Y to make everything fit.

Ok thanks. When I did mine I used '76 full-size truck knuckles so I had the too-large holes to contend with. For that I used a shortened F150 tie-rod and draglink setup.
Tapered shims either didn't exist for that back then, or I simply did not know where to look for them. And certainly did not want to pay machine shop prices for a custom set.
So the shortened tie-rod with the proper ends worked best for me.

Paul

 

[BGBronco]

Centerlink Adjustment

Paul - I made the recommended adjustments, Centerlink is officially pointing North!

 

[DirtDonk]

Not a great picture but I made the recommended adjustments, Centerlink is officially pointing North!

Definitely!
Looks good from here. Note the relationship of the pivot points between the trackbar upper and lower, and the draglink upper and lower. Much closer to parallel. You may not even need the previously discussed arm or new holes.

What size tires are those? Sorry, if you've mentioned that before I don't remember the size. Just referencing my last comment on the toe-in.
It never hurts to fiddle with toe-in settings once you've got the angle correct. On mine, every 1/16" made a noticeable difference in how it felt driving around town. Didn't need to get it on the open road because whichever setting felt the best around the city felt great on the highway.

And one last thing, is to make sure that each time you make changes you tighten all the clamps back up nice and tight. I've experienced it, and someone else was just mentioning it on one of the forums, that when left loose the joints really flex and wander. So tight is good, and tiny movements at a time when adjusting is the rule of thumb.

Paul

 

[BGBronco]

Tires are 33x12.5x15. Thank you.

 

[savage]

Paul - I made the recommended adjustments, Centerlink is officially pointing North!

How does it drive now? I bought that set up and didn't like the bent drag bar. I ended up keeping the tie rod bar and changing the drag bar to a straight style.