AOD with Fuel Injection

[David63]

Is anyone running an AOD with either the Holley or Edelbrock fuel injection? Any issues with adjusting the TV cable to get the transmission to shift correctly at the right engine loads?

 

[ba123]

Has nothing, or should have nothing to do with what fuel injection. It just goes inline with your throttle cable and moves opposite, just like a kick down and you have to adjust it.

Right?

Do you have this setup and not working correctly? Did you adjust the tv with a pressure gauge?

 

[Broncobowsher]

I can see where it would be difficult if not nearly impossible to dial in an AOD with aftermarket EFI. The large throttle body that responds very quickly with minimal throttle input.
The original AOD throttle mapping would be a lot more linear with throttle input. The aftermarket throttle bodies will give 90-100% torque at just off idle. It is one thing I really don't like about them. Fought it with the original Holley Projection 20+ years ago. And again 5 years ago when I put the Sniper on. Wasn't even the AOD. Just drivability. To the first time car person it feels night and day more powerful as soon as the EFI is bolted on. The throttle is nearly digital, idle or making power. With the ProJection I made a throttle cam that would slowly open the throttle blades just off idle but open them faster the closer your foot got to the floor. That worked good enough. With the Sniper I got the progressive linkage kit. This was the key to making the Sniper drivable. Without it, the power was an on/off switch. With it, the power was controllable. Without it part throttle cruise was about 6% throttle, with it 12% throttle. Same torque output (cruising power) but I had twice the range in the throttle pedal to control it. For an AOD that gives a broader window for the AOD linkage to respond to the torque output.

For the longest time it was always said that you could not swap carbs if you have an AOD. All the kits were *except AOD. It isn't the issue of getting the linkage hooked up. It is the issue of mapping the engine torque with the TV linkage. IF 20% throttle is 100% of available torque, but the linkage and calibration in the transmission thinks you are only making 50% of the possible torque, you are overpowering the transmission. Clutches slip, shift points are off. It will work fine at full throttle, 100% is still 100%. But it is the part throttle stuff where it will fail you at.

20+ years ago I had a neighbor who did an AOD behind a built 351. He ended up making a 2-piece linkage with a bellcrank in the middle. Weeks of changing the geometry of that linkage. It wasn't 1:1 with throttle linkage. They both had the same stroke, but the relationship of that stroke between the carb and the trans took weeks of tweaking. Levers and arcs of travel. He was pretty envious of my 4R70W software tuning. In the end he stated that he should have done the 4R70W instead.

Now if you are dealing with all stock parts. The service manual stating how to dial in the line pressure will be a good route to follow.

 

[ba123]

Wow…ok, then! I see.

Thanks for the lesson!

 

[David63]

I can see where it would be difficult if not nearly impossible to dial in an AOD with aftermarket EFI. The large throttle body that responds very quickly with minimal throttle input.
The original AOD throttle mapping would be a lot more linear with throttle input. The aftermarket throttle bodies will give 90-100% torque at just off idle. It is one thing I really don't like about them. Fought it with the original Holley Projection 20+ years ago. And again 5 years ago when I put the Sniper on. Wasn't even the AOD. Just drivability. To the first time car person it feels night and day more powerful as soon as the EFI is bolted on. The throttle is nearly digital, idle or making power. With the ProJection I made a throttle cam that would slowly open the throttle blades just off idle but open them faster the closer your foot got to the floor. That worked good enough. With the Sniper I got the progressive linkage kit. This was the key to making the Sniper drivable. Without it, the power was an on/off switch. With it, the power was controllable. Without it part throttle cruise was about 6% throttle, with it 12% throttle. Same torque output (cruising power) but I had twice the range in the throttle pedal to control it. For an AOD that gives a broader window for the AOD linkage to respond to the torque output.

For the longest time it was always said that you could not swap carbs if you have an AOD. All the kits were *except AOD. It isn't the issue of getting the linkage hooked up. It is the issue of mapping the engine torque with the TV linkage. IF 20% throttle is 100% of available torque, but the linkage and calibration in the transmission thinks you are only making 50% of the possible torque, you are overpowering the transmission. Clutches slip, shift points are off. It will work fine at full throttle, 100% is still 100%. But it is the part throttle stuff where it will fail you at.

20+ years ago I had a neighbor who did an AOD behind a built 351. He ended up making a 2-piece linkage with a bellcrank in the middle. Weeks of changing the geometry of that linkage. It wasn't 1:1 with throttle linkage. They both had the same stroke, but the relationship of that stroke between the carb and the trans took weeks of tweaking. Levers and arcs of travel. He was pretty envious of my 4R70W software tuning. In the end he stated that he should have done the 4R70W instead.

Now if you are dealing with all stock parts. The service manual stating how to dial in the line pressure will be a good route to follow.

Thank you for the great explanation of the challenge with the AOD. Thats what I suspected and I have been looking at ways to adjust the geometry. I am in the process of planning an engine upgrade and going through the trades. Carb vs fuel injection is the latest. Since I have a 3 year old AOD built by Gearstar that has been rock solid and I am good at tuning Holley carbs, I will most likely stick with the carb for now. When its time for another transmission, the 4R70W sounds like the right choice for the next evolution of my Bronco.

 

[Broncobowsher]

IF you want a throttle body EFI that should work with the AOD, look at the Sniper Q-jet replacment. Spreadbore and progressive linkage right out of the box. The first half of the throttle travel is just a small 2-barrel. Very much like a stock carb as far as airflow (torque) vs. throttle opening. By the time you are in it deep enough to get into the secondaries you will be in the heavy throttle/high torque range of the TV curve of the transmission.

 

[Steve83]

Ford EFI works great with AOD.

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[Broncobowsher]

Ford EFI works great with AOD.

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That's all stock stuff. Yes, stock stuff plays together just fine.
But the OP was inquiring about aftermarket EFI. That is where things go bad. For the most part, aftermarket EFI has a very aggressive airflow at low throttle openings. As I stated above, the high airflow makes large torque just off idle. Feels powerful as it feels jumpy off idle.
Stock stuff is more about drivability. The ability to modulate torque just off idle. The factory TV is engineered to match the controlled torque off idle in the factory calibration.

 

[DirtDonk]

I think Steve was simply pointing out exactly that fact. And suggesting that using an aftermarket mix of parts might not always be the best practice. Which, if I’m not mistaken, might be one of his pet peeves.
Perhaps even throwing out the semi-subliminal suggestion that the OP consider going with stock EFI stuff instead. (or maybe even switching to a 4R70w and the rabbit hole that suggests!)
Even at this late stage.

 

[rmcmillan]

Running Elderbrock Pro Flow 4 with AOD with no issues adjusting the tv cable. Approx 6000 miles since rebuild.

 

[chuck1022]

Running Elderbrock Pro Flow 4 with AOD with no issues adjusting the tv cable. Approx 6000 miles since rebuild.

Are you controlling the AOD withbthebpro flo 4?

 

[DirtDonk]

As far as I remember, an AOD should not need electronic controls. Only the later ones did, which might be why people still go with the original AOD version instead of later electronic ones.
The later transmissions are usually considered better/stronger, but many of the upgrades can be done to an AOD to help bring it up a notch or three.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Is that what you were asking? If the Edelbrock computer was able to control shifts?
Or something else?

Paul

 

[ba123]

Correct. AODE had electronics, thus the other E, also known as a 4R70W.

 

[ba123]

Actually, someone correct me…I always get the number versions wrong.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Actually, someone correct me…I always get the number versions wrong.

AOD went to AODE to gain the electronic controls. This is the close ratio electronic control version
AODE-W got the wide ratio gearset. Only a couple of models got this as it was being phased in.
AODE-W is a 4R70W, they just changed the naming to a more industry standard.

The industry standard isn't really a standard, there is still ambiguity in it. But it works out at 4 forward gears, rear wheel drive layout, torque capacity (in a way that won't make sense to you), and it is a wide ratio.
The C6 based overdrive used in the diesels was the 4R100, 4 speed rear wheel drive and a higher torque capacity.
GM did the name change as well. 4l60 is the old 700R4, 4 speeds Longitudinally mounted, torque rating of 60. 4L60E added electronic shift. The old turbo 400 even got a brief life as the 3L80.

As for the torque capacity thing. The best I have been able to tell, dealing with a lot of automotive engineers, some quite old and dating back to the early 80s, the torque rating is in Newton Meters, but it isn't the engine rating. The best I can tell it is the input shaft rating, or the weakest link in the transmission. And that limitation usually isn't an instantaneous value, but it could be. The transmissions are designed to last thousands of miles of hard use in stock configuration. Spike loads may be absorbed without harm where the same load in a sustained fashion will destroy parts, maybe. So many variables and the people who engineered it are not going to tell you what the limits are in all areas. You just get a number, 70. The beefed version of the 4R70W that was used behind the 5.4 engine is the 4R75W. Two things are known about that one, a different (hardened) set of gears in the planetary set and a slight bump in line pressure. You can reverse engineer that the weak point (what it took to get the torque capacity up) was the durability of the gear set and a slight touch of clutch slippage needing a little more line pressure. That was to get long life out of the transmission. I've know people who would tow with that transmission and it was full throttle for the whole tank of gas. Very little shock load doing that, but those gears get a long sustained beating. Just give up trying to figure exactly what that number means. Just know a bigger number can take more.

 

[ba123]

Thanks for the extra info. It's been forever since I looked at all that. My AOD, I had originally bought for a project I had before the Bronco and knew I wouldn't finish but then did the AOD up right for the Bronco with the upgraded non-lockup single input shaft and custom converter, Ford wide ratio kit, valve body kit, and prob more stuff but don't remember.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Without the lockup in overdrive it is hard to carry enough RPM for the convertor to spin fast enough to stay cool.

The original AOD 3rd gear is strange. For a 1:1 ratio the typical power is to just straight through and gears don't actually turn. But Ford figured how to drive a 1:1 direct drive, and do so passing power through spinning gears. The split input, some torque through the convertor and some through the convertor bypass shaft. That is how you get 60% locked in 3rd gear without actually slipping any clutches. The strange transmission stuff Ford was doing in the 80s. There were others, like the ATX transaxle that had a planetary gearset inside the torque convertor.

 

[ba123]

Yeah, I remember discussing all that with Art Carr, who made my input shaft and custom converter 20+ years ago...it'll be interesting to see how everything works once I finally get to drive it.

My converter is high stall, and also running 5.13 gears so I shouldn't have a problem spinning it high enough.

and sorry @David63 for the hijacked thread...hope you're getting something out of this aod discussion.

 

[Quick & Dirty]

The best I can tell it is the input shaft rating,

Transmission torque rating is the input shaft, after the converter. A slipping converter can more than double the engine torque into the transmission. The standard 4R70W converter has a torque multiplication of 2.25. The high stall converter from the Mustang and Explorer is 2.4.