burning up ground wires please help

[Sniper]

actually dirt if you look down that page i linked i have a ford style 7078, not the custom 7078

ill run down and take some pictures of the whole sha-bang, and it's ok you get a little upset, trust me this alternater has been driving me nuts and i've been working on it since last friday.

edit: took a video uploading to youtube.

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok, sorry. But which page do you mean? The link I clicked on is the PDF instructions showing a TuffStuff Hybrid. The lower pic is of a stock one, but it looks like it's there only for reference.
So you're saying then that your alternator is a completely stock type, with all the stock connections?
Well "Golleeey Sgt Carter!"

So then, here's what you have to do again, just for giggles.
Have it tested, or to test it yourself, "full field" it. Viper can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you simply apply 12v to the Orange Field wire (with the engine spinning the alternator) and see if the alternator puts out by measuring the voltage at the battery.

Otherwise, a quick trip to the auto parts store for a quicky test would be advisable so you don't have to pull any more hair out.
See if they can test the regulator too.

Paul

 

[Sniper]

yes it is a stock style alternator, the PO decided to rip out the stock one and put his own in with a built in regulator and removed the old wiring.

the pdf you clicked the one on the bottom is the alternator i have.

so i had to re-do everything.

i have had the auto parts store test it and the alternator seems to be working but the voltage isn't getting from the alternator to the battery.

video shows it all and it will be up in a minute or two.

and i do believe almost all wires in this truck have been altered by the PO, i replaced all the smoked wires with new ones, they were smoked due to me grounding incorrectly from the alt to the starter solenoid.

once i switched the ground to the block, (which now it is from the alt to the regulator bolts) i replaced the wires with new wiring so none of the smoked ones are left aside from the main pos and neg wires coming from the battery because i didn't have any in that large of gauge

 

[Sniper]

here's the video i hope it helps my inane ability to confuse everyone including myself when it comes to this truck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA73kus4jfI

 

[DirtDonk]

I just paused it at the beginning to tell you that your old one looks like one our our own WH semi-custom "1-Wire" Ford 3G 130 amp alternators.

If it's not working with just the main battery wire connected, then it's either got a bad regulator, or something else in the alternator has failed.

You can test it, and replace the regulator with a new one if it needs it.
http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Self-Exciting-Regulator-1wire-3G

Of course, since you already have a new one, that's probably not your best option at this point.
But it's there in case it ever becomes an option. Or in case you want to sell it on.

It's just a guess from afar of course, but that's sure what it looks like.

Paul

 

[Sniper]

but the wiring setup i've got in the video is correct? so atleast i know that's not the issue?

i tried to get the old one tested and without a product # the parts store said they couldn't test it on their machine.

 

[DirtDonk]

Fantastic! Great idea to make a video. Went surprisingly quick for 6 minutes too. ;D

Unfortunately, I didn't see anything wrong. Sheepskin!
It was a little jiggly to see every detail, but from your verbal descriptions, it appears that you have it correct in every way.
The only things that I couldn't really see, were where a couple of the wires terminated at both ends.

Your Green wire from the F of the regulator to the FLD of the alternator is correct.
Are you sure the connector it's hooked to is the FLD? Is the insulator Orange?

I'm sitting here trying to remember which side of the regulator is the F and which side is the I, but it sounds like you've verified that the one on the left in the picture is the F. And the fact that you are getting more voltage in your readings of some of the wires bears that out.
I know you said your meter may not be that accurate, but what exactly where the readings? In other words, just how different were they between engine off, and engine running?

The fact that it's not getting to the battery is weird. Can you post a pic (no need for the full video this time) of where your positive battery cable is connected, and where the alternator output is connected?
I believe you said they're both on the starter relay post, but wanted to make sure.

If the alternator tests good, and you're seeing a rise in voltage at some of the wires, it's just GOT to be something simple we're missing.
Hard to see everything in the spaghetti bowl of that corner, but I know you've been running and swapping wires all day, so I'm not complaining. Just saying...
In all that, have you re-traced all the main wires to see that they're still where you think they are? With all the changes and being late at night (is this a work/school night?), one of them might have been bumped maybe?

Hang in there. It's going to work!
Somehow...

Paul

 

[Sniper]

i'll get a picture, i'm in my garage right now staring at it

one of the red positive wires goes from the alternator battery terminal to the starter solenoid on the positive side so it touches the pos wire coming from the battery to the starter solenoid

the other red positive wire comes from the alternator battery terminal to the regulator A port

the green wire comes from the FIELD terminal on the alternator to the F port of regulator

green and brown wire (believed to be 12v when run) goes to S port

the IASF are printed on the regulator and the one on the left in the video nearest the engine is the F port then next is S then A then I

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok, I don't see a large Red wire on the back of the alternator.
I see the small one you have connected to the A terminal of the regulator, but there should be a large cable from there as well, to the starter relay.

In other words...

Large cable direct from the main BAT terminal of the alternator to the battery positive. Either though the starter relay where you have a lot of other wires, or direct to the battery.

Small red wire from the A terminal of the regulator to any of the positive battery cables. Could be right where it is on the back of the alternator (with a big cable too) or from the battery side of the starter relay/solenoid.

Ground cable from the battery negative to the engine. Smaller ground from the battery negative to the body (which you do have). Small ground between the alternator GRD to the regulator bolt (which you also have). Can be a smaller wire, but hey, the large cable you already have isn't going to hurt anything.

Keep the switched 12v on the S, and the always-on 12v to the A of the regulator.
It sounds like you did test the Brown wire (could be old faded Green w/red) on the regulator for 12v with the key. If you're not sure, test it again.

That's all I can think of right now. The biggest thing is getting another big cable from the positive output. I think that's your main issue at this point.
Could be other things of course, but that's a big one.

Paul

 

[Sniper]

big red cable was hiding. it's there

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok, you beat me to it. I guess I just could not see the big red wire you were describing in the video.
You pointed the camera right at the post with the small red wire, and I could not see a large red wire there.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Ok, there it is. Big as day.
Sorry I just didn't catch it in the video.

Good pics. Helps a lot.
Now on to Plan-B... Whatever that might be. Sleep on it maybe?

Sounds like a plan to me!!! :-[

Paul

 

[Sniper]

green and brown (could be faded red) is indeed 12v when run

yeah that's about what i'm thinking, i'm totally lost as to why it won't work.

blew a fuse in my voltmeter luckily there was a spare inside there!

 

[DirtDonk]

Don't know about where you are, but I've seen some pretty decent digital meters for as little as 10 bucks on sale.
Yes, it's easy to spend 30 on the same ones, but keep your eyes open. You might get lucky.

In the meantime, maybe someone you know has one you can borrow? It'd suck to find out that your old meter was giving you wrong info, but at least the new one should be consistent and show any increases at the battery. If there is one.

Paul

 

[Sniper]

got it working with a spare fuse, we have an update... the battery fresh off the charger is reading 13.5 volts. the alternator is readin 0.

and this is accurate, i put some fresh batteries in so it's being quite accurate, with the negative terminal touching the pos terminal on the alternator i'm getting nothing. so seems the alternator is actually bad.

which i already had this one replace the first toughstuff alternator i had purchased to replace the original i showed in the video because the first tough stuff alternator had a screw that wouldn't come off of a terminal so i couldn't clamp any wires to it.

so i'll have to wait for the parts store to ship one in. this one i have right now was their last 7078.

i'm considering putting on the mastercraft alt and testing it. but that'll be alot of work just to see if the internal regulated mastercraft is good or not. and i am almost sure it isn't.

 

[Sniper]

so the grand end to the tale... wiring is correct, regulator is correct, brand new alternator is bad.

atleast i still have my receipt to turn it back in.

but that doesn't help that i still feel like an idiot.

 

[DirtDonk]

got it working with a spare fuse, we have an update...

Super. I like the cheap fixes best.

the battery fresh off the charger is reading 13.5 volts. the alternator is readin 0.

Something wrong there (more below), because the alternator's output wire is directly connected to the battery. So even if the alternator is not charging, there is always supposed to be at least a reading of whatever the battery voltage is at the time. In this case, 13.5 volts.

and this is accurate, i put some fresh batteries in so it's being quite accurate, with the negative terminal touching the pos terminal on the alternator i'm getting nothing. so seems the alternator is actually bad.

The alternator output is actually Positive too. The electricity flows back and forth (this is not a short-circuit unless it touches a ground) depending on which is stronger. If the battery is charged, it might push against the alternator. When the battery is lower and the alternator is charging, it's pushing "power" back up through the wire to the battery.
Whichever component is the strongest is the one feeding all the electrical needs of the truck. So when the engine is off, the battery powers everything. When the engine is running (and everything is working) the alternator powers everything, including the battery.

So go back and test again. This time with the positive lead on the BAT terminal of the alternator and the negative lead on a good ground. Preferably the battery negative.

i already had this one replace the first toughstuff alternator i had purchased to replace the original i showed in the video because the first tough stuff alternator had a screw that wouldn't come off of a terminal so i couldn't clamp any wires to it.

so i'll have to wait for the parts store to ship one in. this one i have right now was their last 7078.

i'm considering putting on the mastercraft alt and testing it. but that'll be alot of work just to see if the internal regulated mastercraft is good or not. and i am almost sure it isn't.

Then don't go to that trouble. Take it to the store instead and let them test it for you. That way you don't change any wires, don't unbolt anything you don't need to, and still you find out if it's good.
And if it's good, you can decide to use it or not.
After all, an internally regulated alternator is the same as an external version, in one respect. They both need the all the wires to work as expected, or they won't charge.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

so the grand end to the tale... wiring is correct, regulator is correct, brand new alternator is bad.

atleast i still have my receipt to turn it back in.

but that doesn't help that i still feel like an idiot.

As you probably figured from my last reply, don't return it just yet.
Test it with the positive lead again to see what you get.
As a different way too, touch the positive to the output and the negative to the case of the alternator.
Specifically, try touching the negative lead also to the GRD post that you have your ground wire on. Just in case there's something amiss with that particular post. You can compare the readings between the post-as-negative, and the case-as-negative.

Paul

 

[Sniper]

so... the alternator last night read no voltage, so i pulled it and put the one the previous owner had installed, went to advance this morning and had them bench test the toughstuff alternator i pulled, it was good... so the problem was isolated to the regulator, went home re-installed the tough one alternator and then exchanged the regulator for a new one, installed it at advance and had them test the system and it's good to go. long day so far...

also located where my bad ground was and got new wires to solve that.

problem is solved. thank god.

they can't test mastercraft internally regulated alternators.