C bushings and bronco lean

[bfoldy]

I'm not a believer either, the C bushings being either poly or rubber are going to allow movement, so once driven and/or flexed, things should find their own locations. It might pull a lean out at first, but I doubt it's a permament fix. Or you may have a lean after installation, but I bet it'll work itself out.

It worked for me. When I first installed new c-bushings and lift springs on mine, I too thought it might settle in to place after some driving and flexing. At least a year and 1,000 miles later and it still had the same amount of lean. Then I tried the prescribed cure above...it took several attempts to get the radius arms parallel, but when I bolted everything back together, the lean was gone. No components on the vehicle were changed the second time around, only my procedure in tightening down and ensuring consistency of the pitch between the radius arms.

 

[Annapolis76EB]

Wouldn't it be easier to leave the radius arms and springs mounted on the car and put the axle into the "C" bushings last? That way the radius arms would be clamped in level.

This is how we did mine. Just used a level on the axle when tightening. Much easier than trying to drag that axle back to get the rear radius arm mounted in. That rear bushing was a mother. Also, be careful with that front brake line if you haven't disconnected it already.

 

[bronko69er]

I'm not a believer either, the C bushings being either poly or rubber are going to allow movement, so once driven and/or flexed, things should find their own locations. It might pull a lean out at first, but I doubt it's a permament fix. Or you may have a lean after installation, but I bet it'll work itself out.

If you think the c-bushings have flex, try this next time you are working on a front end:
With the frame supported on jack stands and the coils removed put a floor jack under one hub and jack it up to approximately ride height. Now try to go stand on the other hub, axle doesnt move much does it?

 

[iwlbcnu]

So looking at this pic:

you're telling my that the arms are both in the same exact position relative to the axle as if the truck is sitting level? If something isn't giving, wouldn't the 44 be twisted in half? If something isn't moving how do stock rubber bushings get walked out the clamp?

 

[bronko69er]

So looking at this pic:
you're telling my that the arms are both in the same exact position relative to the axle as if the truck is sitting level?

Nope, but the force applied to the end of the to make the bushings flex it quite substantial 9at least with urethane), enough to induce a lean if not set parallel initially. The bushings will not set themself to make the arms parallel after tightening, they can compress and relax with substantial force but they will not move on the wedges. This is one of the reasons long arms flex so much better, they have greater leverage on the bushings as well as not being require to compress them as much to achieve the same amount of articulation.

I surmise that the only doubters out there are the ones that have never installed both mis-alingned and aligned arms on the same rig and seen what a difference it makes....

 

[67Stallion]

I just did that with mine and i got 1 inch bronko69er! I went to change out the 3 inch rancho with 3 1/2 devers front and rear, started with drivers side front, floor jack up axle, remove tire, hylift under bumper frame, lifted enough to relieve any tension, removed bolts top and bottom on spring, loosened raduis arm nut all the way out, lowered floor jack, it dropped 1 inch, rancho spring fell out, so i stand on hub, doesnt move, grab fender ,pull like hexx, get another 3 inch, let go and it goes back to 1 inch drop level, these coils are 5 inches longer, so whip out bottle jack, place between radius arm and frame, jacked them apart until i got spring shoved in there! I could have parked the passenger tire on a 2" rock and changed the drivers tire, thats how much flex i had!! Ah them devers thousand times better than 23 year old ranchos. Bronco lean, never new it existed until read it on here, changed out at least 10 different front ends, and always level, i just wire brush the axle wedges and c-clamps and lube the heck out of them and bushings and criss-cross tighten the 4 bolts!

 

[bronko69er]

I just did that with mine and i got 1 inch bronko69er! I went to change out the 3 inch rancho with 3 1/2 devers front and rear, started with drivers side front, floor jack up axle, remove tire, hylift under bumper frame, lifted enough to relieve any tension, removed bolts top and bottom on spring, loosened raduis arm nut all the way out, lowered floor jack, it dropped 1 inch, rancho spring fell out, so i stand on hub, doesnt move, grab fender ,pull like hexx, get another 3 inch, let go and it goes back to 1 inch drop level, these coils are 5 inches longer, so whip out bottle jack, place between radius arm and frame, jacked them apart until i got spring shoved in there! I could have parked the passenger tire on a 2" rock and changed the drivers tire, thats how much flex i had!! Ah them devers thousand times better than 23 year old ranchos. Bronco lean, never new it existed until read it on here, changed out at least 10 different front ends, and always level, i just wire brush the axle wedges and c-clamps and lube the heck out of them and bushings and criss-cross tighten the 4 bolts!

I have actually come arcross different axles that produce different results when installing bushings. I've has some that naturally want to be parallel when the bolts are fully tightened and some that just plain wont do it unless you leave a gap on the bottom side of one of the arm/cap mating surfaces.
I imagine its a combiniation of different bushing manufacturers, variance in wedge installation from the factory, varying degrees of scaled and rusted arms and wedges......

 

[iwlbcnu]

So yes intially it can induce a lean, I agree with that, but once you flex the front end where ever you set it intially is gone. If this wasn't so, then why not just do away with the bushing and make it solid?
What I'm saying is yes on a new setup this can cause a lean, but once driven over any kind of rough surface, enough to cause a few inches of flex it is going to do what it wants.

 

[bronko69er]

So yes intially it can induce a lean, I agree with that, but once you flex the front end where ever you set it intially is gone.

But unfortunately this isnt the case. It does return to its inital state after flexing, and the lean will remain. I think you are invisioning the C-bushing actually sliding on the wedges during flexing, which they dont. They simply compress, and when uncompressed they return to their unstressed state, which, if misaligned to begin with, is still misaligned when uncompressed. They arent actually going where they want to.

Think of the busing as a bunch of little springs, you can flex them by force, but they will return to their ballanced stress state when the force is removed. If you initaily set those springs to where the arms are not parallel, this will be their stress ballanced state and they will always want to return to it.

If this wasn't so, then why not just do away with the bushing and make it solid?
What I'm saying is yes on a new setup this can cause a lean, but once driven over any kind of rough surface, enough to cause a few inches of flex it is going to do what it wants.

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[carter2772]

Just to through another wrench in the conversation.. If the c bushings create soo much flex as being talked about, then why do the cage arms and weld on brackets flex so well? They are solid mounted to the axle. There are two 7/8" bushings in each bracket, but i dont think they have the same "squish" (technical term) as the c bushing. Also the long arms have a heim joint at the frame, wouldn't that help the flex?

 

[bronko69er]

Just to through another wrench in the conversation.. If the c bushings create soo much flex as being talked about, then why do the cage arms and weld on brackets flex so well? They are solid mounted to the axle. There are two 7/8" bushings in each bracket, but i dont think they have the same "squish" (technical term) as the c bushing. Also the long arms have a heim joint at the frame, wouldn't that help the flex?

Heims only help flex (over a stock bushing) on a short arm, once you extend the arms, the flex requirement of that joint drops below the amount of available flex in stock bushings. Now the limiting factor becomes the coils, inless you have a super tall/long travel coil-over setup, you wont be reaching the limit of those bushings

Also by extending the arms you are reducing the flex requirement of the arm to axle interface to achieve the same amount of articulation, so putting in less compressive bushings at that joint evens out this effect. Again in this scenerio, its quite possible that the coils run out of flex before the bushings do. Id be curious to see how the 2 types of cage arms attachements (c-bushings vs bolted and bushed) compare (flex wise). Ever wonder why the long travel coil over setups usually are attached with 4 links?

 

[carter2772]

the yellow bronco has the same cage style set up as the white one, but the yellow one is running king coil overs. It has crazy flex. see video. Actually at the end of the video you can see the two ebs comparing flex...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_x9JjckaHU

 

[bronko69er]

the yellow bronco has the same cage style set up as the white one, but the yellow one is running king coil overs. It has crazy flex. see video. Actually at the end of the video you can see the two ebs comparing flex...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_x9JjckaHU

Yep, to get that kind of flex you need coil overs and linked suspension, not EB coils or radius arms of any kind.

 

[cmmcd72]

Does anyone know if, eliminating the c-bushings all together and replacing them with welded brackets, decreases the amount of lean? (assuming everything was leveled before welding) What type of weld-on brackets have members used with extended radius arms? The whole c-bushing setup looks out-dated and it would look much cleaner if my extended radius arms were firmly fixed to the axle.

 

[bronko69er]

Does anyone know if, eliminating the c-bushings all together and replacing them with welded brackets, decreases the amount of lean? (assuming everything was leveled before welding) What type of weld-on brackets have members used with extended radius arms? The whole c-bushing setup looks out-dated and it would look much cleaner if my extended radius arms were firmly fixed to the axle.

You cant do that or there will be no flex at all.

 

[carter2772]

You cant do that or there will be no flex at all.

HUH?.......

 

[bronko69er]

HUH?.......

If you weld your arms to your axle and have no way for them to move, there will be no articulation.
I'm feeling like this same discussion just went on in one of Danwheelers threads....
http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128122

 

[carter2772]

If you weld your arms to your axle and have no way for them to move, there will be no articulation.
I'm feeling like this same discussion just wen on in one of Danwheelers threads....%)

I think we mean the same things, just not understanding what each other are saying... Dang engineers.. Agree to disagree...;D