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Can an aftermarket fuel gauge fry sending units?

DuctTape

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I have been running aftermarket gauges for awhile now (equus, ohm matched to stock 0-75). Gauge stopped working and I was able to determine that the sending unit failed (I removed sending unit and tested resistance and then verified that there was a physical failure in the winding).

Today, my gauges on my '74 f250 pegged right, and I am suspecting ivr. Doing a little research tonight and came across a page that claimed that aftermarket gauges will fry stock fuel sending units because the ivr operates at 5v and the aftermarket gauge operates at 12v.

Any truth to this? I have a new sending unit ready to install but now I'm wondering if I need to step down the voltage going to the aftermarket gauge...


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Viperwolf1

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I have been running aftermarket gauges for awhile now (equus, ohm matched to stock 0-75). Gauge stopped working and I was able to determine that the sending unit failed (I removed sending unit and tested resistance and then verified that there was a physical failure in the winding).

Today, my gauges on my '74 f250 pegged right, and I am suspecting ivr. Doing a little research tonight and came across a page that claimed that aftermarket gauges will fry stock fuel sending units because the ivr operates at 5v and the aftermarket gauge operates at 12v.

Any truth to this? I have a new sending unit ready to install but now I'm wondering if I need to step down the voltage going to the aftermarket gauge...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

It's possible that the gauge caused the failure but unlikely if it was designed for an early Ford fuel sender. It may require 12V to operate the gauge (handy in a car) but that doesn't mean it's pushing 12V to the sender. If it is pushing 12V, you now have 2 1/2 times the current going through the winding. This wouldn't be an issue at lower fuel levels but could be when the tank is full. Do you know the model number of the gauge?

On the F250, IVR ground may be bad.
 

Broncobowsher

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The IVR isn't 5V output, it is about 5V average output. It blinks, much like a turn signal flasher. 12V on, off, 12V on... You can see this if you pay attention. Stock gauges when you first turn them on and they are rising you can see them climb, pause, climb some more, pause, and repeat until they stabilize. The stock gauges and IVR (amp meter not included in this) are thermal and that gives them a nice smooth buffered output. The stock IVR is temperature compensating by the very nature it works (the aftermarket solid state lack this feature, but tend to be more reliable then the low quality replacments now being sold). The temperature compensating means that the gauges will not drift with changes in ambient temperature.

So can an aftermarket gauges fry a sending unit. Possible but unlikely. For a resistor to burn out you must pass too much CURRENT (not voltage) through it. If the gauge has an internal problem that doesn't limit the current, that can cook the sender.
 
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DuctTape

DuctTape

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Thanks guys. I'm going to put my meter in between the gauge and the sending unit and check amperage and voltage, but I'm just going to put in the new sending unit and not worry about it based upon what you guys have said.

I once bought an electronics textbook and a project kit (breadboard plus enough components to build different circuits) in order to try to learn more about electricity and circuits. I definitely understand electronics a lot better now (transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc), but grasping electricity is still a challenge for me.

I cant seem to get past the mechanical metaphor (voltage as pressure, current as flow, resistance as pipe size. more amperage burning out a resistor makes sense to me but I can't wrap my head around why that wouldn't also be the case with higher voltage (like too much pipe pressure bursting a pipe, seems like too much voltage would have the same effect).

If I understand ohms law correctly, amps = volts over resistance, so an increase in voltage would mathematically increase amperage. But as resistance goes down (full, as viper inferred), amperage also goes up. So clearly I'm missing something.

I do see that since the ivr pulses to 12v (duh on my part), then you'd think the sending unit coil is designed to handle 12v, so everything should be hunky dory...

There are two thing about this topic that still confuse me. At zero resistance, Amps become... Undefined? It's obviously asymptotically infinity but that can't be right. Mathematically the limit has to be infinite amps but obviously I'm missing something.

The second thing I've never really figured out is why don't gas tanks catch on fire when a sending unit fails? If you put too much current thru a wire, it gets hot and melts. How is this not a risk with fuel sending units? I can see how it isn't an issue with temp or oil pressure but fuel senders are different and I can't seem to find the logic that makes it safe.

Anyway, thanks guys for putting my mind at ease.

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Viperwolf1

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Thanks guys. I'm going to put my meter in between the gauge and the sending unit and check amperage and voltage, but I'm just going to put in the new sending unit and not worry about it based upon what you guys have said.

I once bought an electronics textbook and a project kit (breadboard plus enough components to build different circuits) in order to try to learn more about electricity and circuits. I definitely understand electronics a lot better now (transistors, capacitors, resistors, etc), but grasping electricity is still a challenge for me.

I cant seem to get past the mechanical metaphor (voltage as pressure, current as flow, resistance as pipe size. more amperage burning out a resistor makes sense to me but I can't wrap my head around why that wouldn't also be the case with higher voltage (like too much pipe pressure bursting a pipe, seems like too much voltage would have the same effect).

If I understand ohms law correctly, amps = volts over resistance, so an increase in voltage would mathematically increase amperage. But as resistance goes down (full, as viper inferred), amperage also goes up. So clearly I'm missing something.

I do see that since the ivr pulses to 12v (duh on my part), then you'd think the sending unit coil is designed to handle 12v, so everything should be hunky dory...

There are two thing about this topic that still confuse me. At zero resistance, Amps become... Undefined? It's obviously asymptotically infinity but that can't be right. Mathematically the limit has to be infinite amps but obviously I'm missing something.

The second thing I've never really figured out is why don't gas tanks catch on fire when a sending unit fails? If you put too much current thru a wire, it gets hot and melts. How is this not a risk with fuel sending units? I can see how it isn't an issue with temp or oil pressure but fuel senders are different and I can't seem to find the logic that makes it safe.

Anyway, thanks guys for putting my mind at ease.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Increasing voltage causes a corresponding increase in current if resistance stays the same. The thing is, the resistance is not always constant on the fuel sender. As fuel level goes up, resistance goes down and current increases.

The IVR does pulse between zero and 12V quickly. However, that voltage is effectively feeding a circuit with two loads, the stock gauge and the sender. The stock gauge is around 12 ohms of resistance. This will drop the voltage at the sender by about 1/2 (on a full tank, less on an emptier tank). As I said above, if you apply 12V to the sender you are greatly increasing the current through it. At some point you will reach the limit where the winding acts like a fuse.

Zero resistance would cause current to become infinite. Neither can really happen but it can increase to a point where something fails. Keep in mind current has to travel from the battery, through the circuits involved and back to the battery. Somewhere in that path is the weakest link.

I think there is little chance of igniting the fuel vapor in the tank because there probably isn't enough oxygen.
 
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DuctTape

DuctTape

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Increasing voltage causes a corresponding increase in current if resistance stays the same. The thing is, the resistance is not always constant on the fuel sender. As fuel level goes up, resistance goes down and current increases.

The IVR does pulse between zero and 12V quickly. However, that voltage is effectively feeding a circuit with two loads, the stock gauge and the sender. The stock gauge is around 12 ohms of resistance. This will drop the voltage at the sender by about 1/2 (on a full tank, less on an emptier tank). As I said above, if you apply 12V to the sender you are greatly increasing the current through it. At some point you will reach the limit where the winding acts like a fuse.

Zero resistance would cause current to become infinite. Neither can really happen but it can increase to a point where something fails. Keep in mind current has to travel from the battery, through the circuits involved and back to the battery. Somewhere in that path is the weakest link.

I think there is little chance of igniting the fuel vapor in the tank because there probably isn't enough oxygen.

So if my aftermarket gauge has 12 ohms of resistance I shouldn't worry, and if it has less I can add a resistor and I should be matching stock specs. Got it (I think). Thank you.


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Viperwolf1

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So if my aftermarket gauge has 12 ohms of resistance I shouldn't worry, and if it has less I can add a resistor and I should be matching stock specs. Got it (I think). Thank you.


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Whoa! Absolutely not. The aftermarket gauge is likely to work completely differently than the stock one. I described the operation of the stock system and the effects of changing the voltage applied to the sender itself. I know nothing about the aftermarket gauge.
 

Steve83

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For a resistor to burn out you must pass too much CURRENT (not voltage) through it.
In a simple resistive circuit, current is a simple geometric function of voltage. V = i x R So too much current can only happen as a result of too much voltage.
If the gauge has an internal problem that doesn't limit the current...
The only limits on current in the factory gauge circuit are:
- the battery's current output (usually on the order of 600-1200 CA, considering modern batteries)
- the alternator's peak output (usually 45-130A, considering common upgrades)
- the wiring's capacity (probably <25A for a second or 2) since there is no factory fuse on the gauge circuit
...I can't wrap my head around why that wouldn't also be the case with higher voltage...
It WOULD (for small increases in voltage, on the order of 101%-10,000% ). The differences are that water doesn't cause pipes to overheat; nor does it induce a magnetic field around the pipe as it flows; and water can spill over or leak out much more easily. But otherwise, the comparison is reasonably useful. Electrons DO move through wires similarly to fluid molecules moving through a pipe; and the effect of voltage to motivate current in electrons is comparable to the effect of pressure to create current in fluids. That's why several fluid terms are applied to electricity, like "current" and "eddy", and the mathematical formulas are nearly identical.
...(like too much pipe pressure bursting a pipe, seems like too much voltage would have the same effect).
That's a different phenomenon, and the electrical equivalent is dielectric breakdown of the insulation around the wire (which occurs on the order of 1,000,000% nominal voltage), at which point a spark jumps out of the wire like water bursting through a pipe. But the similarity ends there because water doesn't need anywhere specific to go - an electric spark MUST always jump to another conductor of lower voltage. If there's not one around, there will never be a spark. The distance is a direct function of the voltage, which is why lightning bolts have such high voltage, and why high-voltage wires are always high above the ground, which isn't allowed to have trees growing up on it.
...amperage also goes up. So clearly I'm missing something.
No, you seem to have that down.
...you'd think the sending unit coil is designed to handle 12v...
That's an oversimplification of the (VERY complicated) actual facts. What it's "designed to handle" is a function of MANY considerations, including what constitutes "failure" for the particular application, and how likely the circuit is to experience overvoltage for more than a fraction of a second (RFI). A much more-accurate simplification is to think of how much POWER a component is designed to handle (or physically, how much HEAT it can dissipate without changing the relevant properties of its materials). If more power is consumed (converted to heat) within a component than it can get rid of (via conduction/convection/radiation), then the component melts or burns (either oxidizes or carmelizes). When its chemistry changes, it's not likely to perform the way it was supposed to. So you can't simply talk about voltage in a design, OR current. W (Watts of power or heat) = V x i So both voltage AND current must be considered. And since either V or i can be expressed in terms of R, W = R x i^2 = V^2 / R
At zero resistance, Amps become... Undefined? It's obviously asymptotically infinity but that can't be right. Mathematically the limit has to be infinite amps but obviously I'm missing something.
Yes - you're missing that current has no apparent mathematical limit, but it DOES have obvious physical limits (listed above) related to both the capabilities of the voltage source which is causing the current, and to the physical construction of the circuit (wire sizes).
The second thing I've never really figured out is why don't gas tanks catch on fire when a sending unit fails? If you put too much current thru a wire, it gets hot and melts. How is this not a risk with fuel sending units?
Several reasons...

The most-important (which is also the least-obvious to most people) is that gasoline DOESN'T BURN. It must first be vaporized (which is why carburetors have venturi and fuel injectors have nozzles), but even gasoline vapor doesn't burn. It ALSO has to be mixed with Oxygen. And even that's not enough... It has to be mixed in the correct proportions. So even if you put a heating element into a gas tank AND increased the pressure substantially (like firing a tracer bullet into it), it will neither explode NOR even ignite. (Just watch MythBusters.)

The next reason is that the circuit feeding the level sender can't carry enough power into the gas tank to vaporize the gas. Same as dumping gas onto a burning wick - if you dump it fast enough, you put the wick out. (DON'T TRY IT!!!) The wiring is too small; the heat necessary to melt the copper and open (kill) the circuit is MUCH lower than the heat necessary to boil the gas; and being a fluid, the warmed gas will convect away from the (failing/overheating) sender, carrying cooler gas onto it.

And if anything was going to blow up gas tanks, it wouldn't be the level senders; it would be the fuel pump motors, which have gasoline flowing through & around their carbon brushes which continually spark against the rotating commutators. But for the same reasons I just described, those sparks don't ignite the gasoline. Ever. Not even with a few hundred million vehicles buzzing around the world with electric fuel pumps submerged in their tanks. The number of occurrences is ZERO, which is the same as the risk.
 
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DuctTape

DuctTape

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Whoa! Absolutely not. The aftermarket gauge is likely to work completely differently than the stock one. I described the operation of the stock system and the effects of changing the voltage applied to the sender itself. I know nothing about the aftermarket gauge.

Hmm what I was thinking is measure the resistance of the gauge from gauge red pole to neg pole, and then from red pole to sending unit wire. I don't know the internals of the gauge but if I measure:

unpowered resistance as described above
powered amperage
powered voltage

Wouldn't that allow me to infer how the aftermarket gauge circuit works?
 
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DuctTape

DuctTape

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The most-important (which is also the least-obvious to most people) is that gasoline DOESN'T BURN. It must first be vaporized (which is why carburetors have venturi and fuel injectors have nozzles), but even gasoline vapor doesn't burn. It ALSO has to be mixed with Oxygen. And even that's not enough... It has to be mixed in the correct proportions. So even if you put a heating element into a gas tank AND increased the pressure substantially (like firing a tracer bullet into it), it will neither explode NOR even ignite. (Just watch MythBusters.)

The next reason is that the circuit feeding the level sender can't carry enough power into the gas tank to vaporize the gas. Same as dumping gas onto a burning wick - if you dump it fast enough, you put the wick out. (DON'T TRY IT!!!) The wiring is too small; the heat necessary to melt the copper and open (kill) the circuit is MUCH lower than the heat necessary to boil the gas; and being a fluid, the warmed gas will convect away from the (failing/overheating) sender, carrying cooler gas onto it.

And now I'm a little bit smarter. Thank you very much for your comprehensive post, extremely helpful.
 
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DuctTape

DuctTape

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It WOULD (for small increases in voltage, on the order of 101%-10,000% ). The differences are that water doesn't cause pipes to overheat; nor does it induce a magnetic field around the pipe as it flows; and water can spill over or leak out much more easily. But otherwise, the comparison is reasonably useful. Electrons DO move through wires similarly to fluid molecules moving through a pipe; and the effect of voltage to motivate current in electrons is comparable to the effect of pressure to create current in fluids. That's why several fluid terms are applied to electricity, like "current" and "eddy", and the mathematical formulas are nearly identical.

This is also extremely helpful. What I'm getting from this is that out of the set of equations that describe an electrical system and a mechanical fluid pressure system, a subset of the two systems' equations are very similar. BUT, there are other governing equations (such as effect of flow/pressure on materials involved, the addition of the magnetic field/current relationship, and differences between how electrons move thru material and how fluid molecules behave).

So, to truly understand electricity one would have to go beyond the basics and take a look at the full set of equations governing the system. In short, the metaphor is useful to grasp the basics but beyond that using fluid dynamics to describe electrical circuits actually interferes with comprehension.
 

Viperwolf1

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Hmm what I was thinking is measure the resistance of the gauge from gauge red pole to neg pole, and then from red pole to sending unit wire. I don't know the internals of the gauge but if I measure:

unpowered resistance as described above
powered amperage
powered voltage

Wouldn't that allow me to infer how the aftermarket gauge circuit works?

The original gauge is a very simple resistive device. Because of that it would be easy to make an accurate measurement of it's resistance to determine current and voltage at the sender. The aftermarket gauge is probably not as simple. It is likely to contain semiconductors which you cannot measure with an ohmmeter.

Your best bet to determine if the gauge could have caused the failure is to replace the fuel sender and measure the voltage applied to it by the gauge. If the voltage is high, then the current is high.

Another way is to find specs for the aftermarket gauge and see if it says it's compatible with the Ford fuel system.
 

Broncobowsher

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Take a light bulb, a little one like a side marker light. Measure the resistance. also measure the resistance of the probes as a dead short. The light bulb will measure in as a dead short most of the time. At this point you are also dealing with the internal errors of the meter and sometimes the resistance of the probes. So lets say you do get a reading of 1 Ohm, which is very likely as the light bulb is nothing more than a piece of wire inside. At 12V, it should draw 12A, and be a 144W light bulb.

But funny things happen as you put loads on things. In the case of a light bulb, the resistance goes way up. So what the meter reads as a un-powered part does not equal what it does under load.

Resistors have tricks to them as well. Without a load, there is no voltage drop. You can hit your local electronics supplier (Radio Shack if one still exists) pick up any value resistor. Put one lead on the positive post of a battery and the other lead goes to a volt meter. A good meter (that doesn't load the circuit) will read full battery voltage. It needs a load to drop the voltage.

Now the aftermarket gauges. These get interesting. The last one I took apart was an Autometer and it was stupid basic. It was a temp gauge, but still it had nothing more in it then 2 sets of windings and 2 resistors. Used magnetic fields to move the needle. The latest ones I got are stepper motors and use a microprocessor. It is rare to find a good quality affordable stepper motor gauge in the aftermarket.

The magnetic gauge uses the variable resistor to change the magnetic field on one coil in reference to the field in the other coil to push/pull the magnet attached to the needle to give you a reading. Being that you are dealing with magnetic coils you are dealing with that whole circuit loading thing again.

And if you have a microprocessor involved, it is probably running a 5V logic level and not 12V through a pull up resistor. You will have to work really hard to figure the pull up value as you probably won't have access to the regulated 5V logic level of the board before the pull up resistor.

Pretty much the sending unit was a dud. The original parts quality generally wasn't that great. I remember growing up and having a car from before the 80's that had a working gas gauge was a rarity. The quality of todays replacement parts isn't much better. No if you go all fancy and pick up one of the floating magnet reed switch style sending units, those will work until you have so much garbage in the tank to jam up the float. But the pickup tube will be long clogged before that if the tank itself isn't rusted through first.
 

Steve83

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BUT, there are other governing equations (such as effect of flow/pressure on materials involved, the addition of the magnetic field/current relationship, and differences between how electrons move thru material and how fluid molecules behave).
Not as much as you might think. There is actually one (very LONG & complex) equation that exists (I forget the name, but Wikipedia will help you find it) which describes every minuscule parameter of fluid flow, and most of its terms apply almost directly to electron flow. Ohm's Law is a simplification of that formula.
...using fluid dynamics to describe electrical circuits actually interferes with comprehension.
Not if you take the time to learn fluid dynamics & electricity (and I'm not saying I understand them fully). Excluding their large-scale differences, they're very similar at a molecule~particle scale. But that level of comprehension isn't necessary for most 12V vehicle circuits; especially antiques.
...find specs for the aftermarket gauge...
That's the best/quickest/most-effective answer to this question. I was looking for them in the PDF he linked, but I didn't see the electrical specs.
Take a light bulb, a little one like a side marker light. ... So lets say you do get a reading of 1 Ohm...
Side marker bulbs are either 161s with 73 Ohms, or 194s with 19.

...the light bulb is nothing more than a piece of wire inside.
Actually, it's quite a bit more than that. Run a piece of wire inside a glass bottle & see how well it performs as a light bulb. A real filament is a relatively-long coil of Tungsten resistor wire inside either a vacuum or a shield gas (often a halogen).
At 12V, it should draw 12A, and be a 144W light bulb.
Not even headlights are that powerful. Not even if you run the hi & low filaments at the same time.
But funny things happen as you put loads on things.
That applies to inductive (electromagnetic) loads; not purely-resistive loads like incandescent bulbs, which obey Ohm's Law at all times.
In the case of a light bulb, the resistance goes way up. So what the meter reads as a un-powered part does not equal what it does under load.
You have a defective meter, or you're not using/reading it correctly.
Put one lead on the positive post of a battery and the other lead goes to a volt meter. A good meter (that doesn't load the circuit) will read full battery voltage. It needs a load to drop the voltage.
Now you're confusing yourself AND the issue by talking about resistance while measuring voltage in a voltage divider circuit. That's not helpful.
 
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DuctTape

DuctTape

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The gauge is an Equus 7000. Spent a little time this morning looking for specs, couldn't find them.

I do know that it is ohm matched, and according to the Equus site, they have one model for Ford, so I have to assume that it is the Ford version of the Equus 7000.

What I'm hearing from the experts here is:

1) It was probably the sending unit, not the gauge;

2) If I wanted to test the gauge I would have to take it apart and hope there is no chip in it in order to really understand the circuit;

3) the smartest thing for me to do is to quit worrying about it and spend time on other projects instead of this! Since I know to listen to people that are smarter about a subject than I am, this is what I shall do!

With all that said, it has been a really interesting discussion and I came away knowing a little more.
 

DJs74

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The gauge is an Equus 7000. Spent a little time this morning looking for specs, couldn't find them.

I do know that it is ohm matched, and according to the Equus site, they have one model for Ford, so I have to assume that it is the Ford version of the Equus 7000.

What I'm hearing from the experts here is:

1) It was probably the sending unit, not the gauge;

2) If I wanted to test the gauge I would have to take it apart and hope there is no chip in it in order to really understand the circuit;

3) the smartest thing for me to do is to quit worrying about it and spend time on other projects instead of this! Since I know to listen to people that are smarter about a subject than I am, this is what I shall do!

With all that said, it has been a really interesting discussion and I came away knowing a little more.

The fuel sender winding's on the resistor board are fragile by nature. Typically, the manufacturer will wind the board and then dip or brush a protective epoxy for protection and strength - then, they buff the area where the contact wiper sweeps so contact can be made and feed the gauge the proper resistance value so the needle deflects to the corresponding position. The fuel sloshing around, side loads on the resistor board, age, etc all play a part on broken wires / broken windings. If one single winding becomes loose, the contact point on the sender can catch and break it.
The ohm range of the gauge versus the ohm range of the sender is critical to proper function. I remember 73 - 10 ohm being offered as the Ford ohm range but I'm not sure what the specific level sender you have might be. The gauge ohms from Empty to Full would be easy enough to get from the manufacturer and they might even suggest a generic / universal fuel sending unit for you to use with it. The alternative would be to verify the resistance range on the sending unit using an ohm meter - hook the meter to the connection, swing the arm to full, check & record / take the arm to empty, check & record and as a reference, go ahead and check the resistance at 1/2 - then, purchase a fuel gauge to match if available.
The universal type senders needed to be adjusted at minimum and possibly cut and adjusted depending on the application, design and manufacturer.
If you go the route of a new sender and the adjustment scenario - adjust it at Empty as your primary concern, then check it at full. Many people set the sender at full and then run out of fuel because the sender bottoms out on the bottom of the tank and gives a false reading thinking they still have fuel.
Potential adjustment points on the senders are: resistor body can be moved up and down vertically, float pivot arm adjusted longer & shorter and float arm can be bent .
If you go the new sender route, check to see if anyone offer a ceramic film or thick film type resistor card - they are not wound like the traditional boards. They are made up of a ceramic material with the resistance material printed / screened on to the ceramic. The card itself is brittle but no windings to break - last I knew, the ceramic cards would take about 1 million sweeps (one sweep is full to empty) before they wore out.


** Edit ** about checking your resistance on the sender if the wire is broken, you can still check it and get data. With the unit out of the tank and on the bench - put one probe of the meter on the beginning of the winding (there is probably a contact pin or rivet on the board where the wire if soldered or just touch the wire) and use the other probe to touch various places on the bare wire where the contact sweeps, you should get results at least up to the broken wire. Then, try putting one probe just after the break and go on to the end with the other probe - this might require adding some information to be able to get your total resistance value.
If you have multiple breaks, probably won't work too well and just be frustrating


Good luck,

DJs74
 
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