Can anybody look at a data log?

[nvrstuk]

I'm not "learn-ed" enough to adj a very fat tune when engine coolant is not up to temp.

Term X V3 software

My tuner left the coolant temp fuel enrichment at 236% of normal cruising setting when the coolant isn't up to temp.. Real FAT AFR.

I've tried pulling all the coolant temp cells in the Holley TermX down to 100% so it would be really lean when the coolant is at room temp (65deg) just to see if I did it right but I guess not.

Anybody willing to look at a data log or even just my settings to see what is causing this?

Thanks

 

[frdboy]

can you email your global config file and a data log? I can take a look

adam@mikesmobil.com

 

[nvrstuk]

I can give that a try. Pm'd ya. Thx

 

[nvrstuk]

Morning,

I will look up how to email the global file tune & take a short data log of what tune I am currently running.

The only change I have made (on the handheld) to his tune was pulling fuel on the coolant temp enrichment circuit.

His tune had very high % settings for cold start. He tunes a lot of cars of guys I know & this is pretty much all he does besides building race engines. He's owned this dyno & shop 25 yrs now. He couldn't believe he'd left the cold start settings this far out of whack.

i remember when I took it to him it was so lean at startup I think maybe he just dumped a lot of fuel on cold start enrichment when it was sitting on the trailer so it would start up and get off the trailer and then forgot to get back to it... course it was warmed up by then by the time he strapped it down.

I fouled at least one plug at the sand dunes & put new plugs in 2 days ago. I tried pulling coolant enrichment with handheld after replacement the next morning when cold. Barely idled two days ago but ran good after it warmed up. Had a doc appt yesterday (4 1/2hrs driving) so started it last night when I got home. So fat when idling it would barely idle. Drove to the gas station & it feels like I fouled another (brand new) plug. Consistent cylinder miss again.

I will get a data log by early afternoon but I will try sending the global file as soon as I get my laptop & see how to do it.

Thanks so much for the offer to look at it. I stayed up late looking at tuning cold start adjustment videos but will not mess it up till somebody with some knowledge come look at it.

Thx.

 

[nvrstuk]

I attached the tune. I will try saving a datalog of it running cold this am.

If another plug is fouled- then of course the afr #'s will all be off because of the unburned O2 flowing thru. These new plugs had 20 min on them b4 I started it last night & the engine started missing by the time it warmed up & on our way to town last night - - like it did 3 days ago & the same as it did the last day at the beach. (just giving you a couple days of back story) !

 

[frdboy]

Looking at the tune something is not right, its pulling 40+% of fuel in an area of the table you shouldn't be.

Honestly the base tune looks ok, coolant temp enrichment is very close. No where do I see something way out of whack.

Are you using the internal map? If so I would make sure the vac hose to it is good.

This looks like to me either a map sensor issue, o2 sensor issue, or maybe a stuck injector?

If your tune was close before you could try turning off closed loop and seeing how it runs, if it is a bad o2 sensor it may run better. I can turn it off and send it back to you as a test.

I would like to see a data log of it idling or at least know what KPA it's idling at.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge on it? running at about 43 psi still?

 

[nvrstuk]

- New O2 sensor in May (means nothing I know)
Will a Bosch 4.9 sub in just fine? I believe that's really all the Holley one is but not 100%

- I put those coolant temp #'s in 2 days ago

- i was researching why it was trying to pull (40%) so much fuel

- I will load this & data log both tunes

- if it has another fouled plug (old ones don't look bad, maybe it is an injector) blocking out the O2 sensor makes sense for sure.

- the tune b4 it started missing so bad & reading 12afr when cruising on level ground at the event last week seemed great. All #'s looked great while on the dyno & I took him on a ride after unstrapping. He had to add more fuel while driving down the road then cause- I was cruising at 3k rpm & then hammered it WOT. Major bog so he hopped in & did a fuel addition across the board & said something about how when doing that the Term X goes into Open Loop so it can't read & correct it.

I double checked the internal map hose & connections two days ago, will check again.

PM'd ya

 

[frdboy]

Bosch Part numbers 17323, 17025, 17212 will all work.

 

[nvrstuk]

Moved to new thread in Bronco Tech...

Coil or RFI Interference?

 

[ba123]

I'm not "learn-ed" enough to adj a very fat tune when engine coolant is not up to temp.

Term X V3 software

My tuner left the coolant temp fuel enrichment at 236% of normal cruising setting when the coolant isn't up to temp.. Real FAT AFR.

I've tried pulling all the coolant temp cells in the Holley TermX down to 100% so it would be really lean when the coolant is at room temp (65deg) just to see if I did it right but I guess not.

Anybody willing to look at a data log or even just my settings to see what is causing this?

Thanks

Sorry, a little late to the party. Not home much this summer.

Honestly, you are not going to tune warmup from a datalog. First off if you're letting your ecu control things, fuel will fight air, which will fight timing, and it's a big mess...or can be.

You really need to lock everything down so that nothing can change and you are in control and you are making the changes.

Figure out the timing it seems happiest with, then air, then fuel. If anything can change on its own, you will never get it right.

I can dig up some resources and send to you if you want but knowing you're like me and do things your own way, you're going to have to figure it out yourself and just understand how.

And the thing with an O2 sensor is it does NOT work cold so ignore the numbers.

 

[ba123]

I know it's different software and a completely different engine but if you don't control the variables, it won't be happy.

Here is my fuel when in idle state:

All based on load and RPM. I also allow 0 EGHO Authority (O2 sensor doesn't matter and ecu can't adjust) under 1400 rpm and ramps up to 10% authority at 2000 rpm, meaning it can adjust up to 10% fuel in either direction at that point.

As far as enrichment is concerned, you need to mess with it until you find a spot that it seems happy and go from there but 236% is a shit ton of fuel. And that's at what temp? I have mine set to be 199% at 30 degrees but my Bronco has never seen 30 degrees so not sure if that's good or not but it should be based on the curve I was able to establish. At 50 degrees I'm at 169%.

Here is my curve. Not perfectly smooth but makes my engine happy this way.

Timing:
Do you have an idle timing correction curve in that software? Pretty sure I had to disable mine while tuning but wherever it's happy at warm idle

For air, tune this when warm if you have the ability to set your IAC valve and see what the engine does when you set it. That way you know the numbers that do what and your ecy isn't fighting to find the spot.

Not sure if you need all that but maybe something to look at. If it runs well once warmed up, then these are the things you need to focus on. Log every start and take notes when something seems good. The first minute or so of an O2 sensor reading is worthless. Trust your experience with what you think the engine is asking for or try giving it more fuel, then less fuel, more air then less air and see what it does. It's most likely going to want the same amount of ait cold as it is warm at the warmup rpm you want and it's going to want enough fuel to make it happy and more rich than warm but not overly so. My engine is happiest warming up at 12.5 afr...or that's the reading I'm getting. If your cam is lopey, then it's not necessarily an accurate reading either. It just is what it is so listen to the engine and go both directions.

Been a while but I think I liked this video I bookmarked a while back but not sure if that's the one that would help.

 

[nvrstuk]

All the variables can be set with the TermX. The idea I believe, is to get a turn absolutely as close as you can and then it can learn that last little bit.

My tune "seemed" very close but when it went, it went! The CLL for learning can be set at different values but at this point-I believe- it's not a tuning issue but a malfunction somewhere?
The difficult part it is narrowing down & finding where that issue is. The more potential obstacles you have in the way (parts, sensors, coil drivers of course the more difficult it is to diagnose.

 I was hoping in my response to Lars, that it's not the wasted spark. System, that isn't any good. It's the parts that drive it or manage it
And since I have two different guys who thought they saw RFI & that points towards corals, yet I replaced coils and still have the issue and at the Texan, holly set out 8 cardles should be controlled by 2 drivers, not one. Therefore, the driver I am using could be overextended or potentially damaged. That's why I'm looking there at the source.

There's only so many times you can look at the three grounds that you have (for the TermX & coil driver) & polish them up super shiny hoping that that's the problem... w/o looking for another source

 

[ba123]

To me, that doesn't make any sense. If it works when warm, it will work when cold. Has to be tuning unless I'm not understanding. It does still work well when warm right?

MS3 learns as well but I think that method is unreliable for WUE unless a bone stock engine and works well when warm and doing pulls.

Forgot to mention above that I also had to tune it in open loop before I could let the ecu try to make changes in closed loop.

If something is actually malfunctioning I hope you find it. Do I remember you having tps sensor issues? That's the only thing that has cause me idle issues but making sure the tolerance is wide enough has solved that for me until I get around to replacing it...meaning the Idle State settings of how much TPS % before it kicks you out of an idle state.

 

[frdboy]

I still say this could be something mechanical, to me it looks like a intake valve not sealing for some reason. Your MAP sensor should not look like this, have you put a mech. vac gauge on it yet to see if vac is actually fluctuating like this? If it bounces at idle then I think you need to do leak down on the engine. If it is pushing combustion gasses back into the intake it will run rich just like if you had an egr valve stuck open.

 

[ba123]

What's the range on that bounce?

Map sensor reading is going to be shit on a lopey cam at idle. Doesn't mean anything is wrong and I'd bet Brian has a lopey cam.

If it runs well warm, it can run well cold. Don't chase demons that don't exist. (but confirm that it does still run well warm or not).

Your tune when warm is the most important thing. When cold, it shouldn't be that different, but a simple path to get you there with a bit more fuel at different stages and higher rpms to help warm up how your engine wants.

 

[ba123]

I still say this could be something mechanical, to me it looks like a intake valve not sealing for some reason. Your MAP sensor should not look like this, have you put a mech. vac gauge on it yet to see if vac is actually fluctuating like this? If it bounces at idle then I think you need to do leak down on the engine. If it is pushing combustion gasses back into the intake it will run rich just like if you had an egr valve stuck open.

Looking at this pic again.

Why is your duty cycle at 2.2%? What is your IAC valve gonna do with 2.2%? It's prob closed.

You're in Open Loop so it's not going to change that setting itself.

Just like I mentioned above about tps, this shows your tps is open 3% and that is A LOT and usually enough to kick you out of idle state. Most tunes I've seen run for 1%.

That's all I can see.

 

[frdboy]

What's the range on that bounce?

Map sensor reading is going to be shit on a lopey cam at idle. Doesn't mean anything is wrong and I'd bet Brian has a lopey cam.

If it runs well warm, it can run well cold. Don't chase demons that don't exist. (but confirm that it does still run well warm or not).

Your tune when warm is the most important thing. When cold, it shouldn't be that different, but a simple path to get you there with a bit more fuel at different stages and higher rpms to help warm up how your engine wants.

I get that for sure, but my 408W with a similar or more overlap and less cubic inches (guessing as I don't know what his is, mine is 240/255ish on a 109) cam idles at 68-72 KPA with way less swing and also not that evenly spaced. Just saying it is best to check basics first. His vac seems low to me at maybe a 82-84 kpa ave. I will try and see if I have one of my DL here at the shop.

 

[frdboy]

Looking at this pic again.

Why is your duty cycle at 2.2%? What is your IAC valve gonna do with 2.2%? It's prob closed.

You're in Open Loop so it's not going to change that setting itself.

Just like I mentioned above about tps, this shows your tps is open 3% and that is A LOT and usually enough to kick you out of idle state. Most tunes I've seen run for 1%.

That's all I can see.

That is Inj duty cycle.

 

[ba123]

I get that for sure, but my 408W with a similar or more overlap and less cubic inches (guessing as I don't know what his is, mine is 240/255ish on a 109) cam idles at 68-72 KPA with way less swing and also not that evenly spaced. Just saying it is best to check basics first. His vac seems low to me at maybe a 82-84 kpa ave. I will try and see if I have one of my DL here at the shop.

Vac will be low on a lopey cam and timing will affect it as well.

The fact that he's in open loop and 3% tps is a big red flag. Ecu thinks he is pressing the gas but the throttle plate isn't open enough for air so the result is him being rich.

What is the IAC duty at this point? Although again, it doesn't matter since in Open Loop as the ecu is not going to change it to address the issue.

Looking at the basics means looking at these things.

Valves not sealing is not the basics and not typical. When you have a new EFI system and never had a good tune, you look at nothing but the tune.

 

[frdboy]

Vac will be low on a lopey cam and timing will affect it as well.

The fact that he's in open loop and 3% tps is a big red flag. Ecu thinks he is pressing the gas but the throttle plate isn't open enough for air so the result is him being rich.

What is the IAC duty at this point? Although again, it doesn't matter since in Open Loop as the ecu is not going to change it to address the issue.

Looking at the basics means looking at these things.

Valves not sealing is not the basics and not typical. When you have a new EFI system and never had a good tune, you look at nothing but the tune.

It's not a new EFI system to him and he has had it dyno tuned a couple times IIRC. It was running good up to a little while ago.


Here is what a "lumpy cam" DL looks like. Same scale as above.