Chevy disc brake swap locking hub problems

[vash07]

Ok first off i am new here and i tried to post this question in the off topic forum because i do not own a Bronco and this question is not for a Bronco. I have always liked the classic broncos for what it's worth though. And Pa Pitt said it's ok for me to ask this question in here.

For starters this is a 1994 YJ i swapped a Dana 44 front axle into using Chevy knuckles. I wanted 5 on 5.5 bolt pattern so i ended up doing the Ford 5 lug hub conversion using Chevy disc brakes.

Now that the axle is all together everything went together smoothly up until i tried to put the Warn premium locking hubs on. There is no in and out play at all and the Warn instructions say that if there is no play something is wrong. The wheel bearing retaining nuts and lock washer are on correctly though.

The axle shaft retaining clips went on as well as the outer ring retaining ring. But when i go to install the Chrome locking cap it will not fully seat. I thought it was the rubber O-ring being stubborn so i removed it and i realized that it's not a problem with the O-ring there is just no more room for the lip of the cap to fully seat once it contacts the body of the hub.

I verified that the axle shaft and the spindle and wheel bearing nuts were not contacting the body of the hub with gear marking compound. I put some on areas of the Warn hub body and bottomed it out and there was no transfer of gear compound. What is happening is the shoulder above the splines on the hub body are bottoming out on the 5 lug ford hub.

I know this mod is popular with Bronco owners when converting to Chevy disc brakes and I'm just trying to figure out how to get the jeep going again. Thanks for any help or advice you have.

 

[Pa PITT]

... Paul can you answer this question . I think I COULD IF I had it in front of me . BUT I'VE NOT WORKED ON A JEEP but noone has done more of these swaps than the bronco guys ..
..

 

[broncochevy]

Think it’s because of the retaining clips.

 

[vash07]

Think it’s because of the retaining clips.

I was wondering about that.... Is that a problem on all of these disc brake swaps? How do you fix it can you run without the outer clip if the inner clip is installed?

 

[vash07]

... Paul can you answer this question . I think I COULD IF I had it in front of me . BUT I'VE NOT WORKED ON A JEEP but noone has done more of these swaps than the bronco guys ..
..

Well i talked to a guy from Warn today and he thought i was breaking new ground with this parts combination and told me that it was my mismatch of chevy/ford/jeep parts causing the problem. I never told him that Bronco guys have been doing this swap for years as well as jeep owners. There are actually no jeep parts involved in my swap it's all chevy/ford.

 

[broncochevy]

I think I’m just referencing my Dana 44 in my Chevy pick up that’s a 72, I did not use a retaining clip I used a bolt if I’m not mistaken, I don’t know if your axle shafts are threaded in the end, and I am using the warn one full turn hubs. I think you could even run it without the c clips or bolts, not 100% sure.


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[broncochevy]

I remember reading the warn instructions. I can’t find them now but there was something about not using the C clip on the axle shaft itself; using the outer retaining ring that’s inside the hub housing, and a bolt inside the end of the axle shaft with maybe a fender washer, I’m going off the top of my head here from 10 years ago building this truck so I might be a little off but you get the gist of it


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[vash07]

I remember reading the warn instructions. I can’t find them now but there was something about not using the C clip on the axle shaft itself; using the outer retaining ring that’s inside the hub housing, and a bolt inside the end of the axle shaft with maybe a fender washer, I’m going off the top of my head here from 10 years ago building this truck so I might be a little off but you get the gist of it


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Yeah the Warn manual says some early model solid front axles may not accept axle retaining rings (77-1/2 - 79 Ford's, 81-84 and some 85 Chevy/GMC's). The axle retaining rings go on my axle shaft fine i have no problem with getting both retaining rings in.


There is no float in the hub that is supposed to be thee though like in this video at 54:18. It is just solid there is absolutely no wiggle room at all and the cap will not fully seat it has about a .030 gap all the way around the cap when bolted together. the cap will not go any further into the ford 5 lug hub.

https://youtu.be/wJQx1_Bs7Tg?t=3258

 

[DirtDonk]

Hey vash, welcome!
When you say there is no play, do you mean on the inner locking assembly? Or the outer knob assembly?

If it's the inner, you may have run afoul of a more recent issue we've been finding, and that's where the manufacturer of the bearing hub did not cut the splines as deep as they used to (probably in an effort to save machining time) and the locking mechanism just can't go any farther inward.
There is also the chance of a very slight burr on the splines that is keeping the Warn part from going all the way in as well. However, I do believe that the burrs cause more trouble with the stock Spicer hubs than they do with the aftermarket ones, like Warn, due to the aluminum slug having a little wider tolerances in the splines.
But you can tell what your fit is like, if you can wiggle it, then burrs are not likely stopping anything. But if you find it's a super tight fit, even a tiny burr on the metal splines may stop it.

If it's the outer knob you're talking about, can you try removing the large outer snap ring and then try to seat the knob again? If it's now able to seat all the way, then the ring groove is not deep enough.
Of course, it "could" be the Warn part, but I think I trust the Warn casting to be more accurate and consistent than a new bearing hub. If you got an old original, none of these issues should exist. But if you bought a new hub then all bets are off as to it's quality.

Not being able to re-install the small snap-ring on the tip of the axle shaft is a very common problem. To the tune of probably 80% of installs of Warn hubs on Ford axles. Not an issue though with your GM based Dana normally.

Another thing to take note of though, is what year is the axle? Specifically the spindles?
They have to be a very narrow range of years for the GM spindle and the Ford hub to be easily compatible. You can make others work, but you have to fiddle with it some.
A few here have made the off-year spindles work, and if yours are not between '72 and '76 (early '76 in fact) that may be at least part of your issue.

One last thing. If it had the original Spicer hub-locks/lockouts/free-running hubs, you did remove the big spring and not re-install it with the Warn hubs. Correct?

Good luck.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Sorry, I actually did see where you mentioned the cap/knob not seating, but spaced on my answer.
Sounds like the inner mechanism is not seating fully, causing your knob/cap to not seat. But if you were able to get the small axle shaft snap-ring back on, I would think there would be enough clearance to seat the knob.

Anyway, let's see what some more testing highlights.

Paul

 

[NGABronco]

I may have missed it, but are you using a Cheby spindle???%)%)

 

[Scoop]

I may have missed it, but are you using a Cheby spindle???%)%)

Also, what bearing are you using?

 

[vash07]

I am using Chevy small bearing spindles made by G2 Axle & Gear, the 5 lug ford hub was made by Raybestos.

It did occur to me that the Raybestos hub might not be machined deep enough so i bought a OEM Ford hub off a 1985 Bronco thinking it was a problem with the more than likely chinese made hub. But the OEM ford hub fit exactly like the Raybestos.

I am using the bearing races that were pressed into the Raybestos hub and Timken bearings.

The camera i was using to take pictures of my build got dropped last week and broke so i need to buy a new one to take pictures. But in the meantime I'm going to post what i think is happening.

I know the body of the hub is not contacting the wheel bearing nuts because i used gear marking compound placed on the back side of the hub splines and aluminum alloy to see where it was making contact when it stopped. It was not touching the spindle or the wheel bearing nuts.

It seems like the hub body is just running out of room in the ford hub on both the Raybestos and the Ford junkyard hub

 

[broncochevy]

Sounds like what Paul said, not enough splines.


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[vash07]

Sounds like what Paul said, not enough splines.


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It fit the same way in a junkyard OEM 1985 ford hub though which is what is even crazier because i thought that would solve my problems and it didn't.

I really need to get this jeep back together but since the Raybestos and OEM hubs did not work im wondering if it is a problem with the Warn hubs, I just dont know what to do next. Even with the Ford hub removed from the jeep to completely remove interference from the spindle the hubs will not seat properly on either side.

If buying new hubs from https://shop.broncograveyard.com/D44-Hub-disc-brake/productinfo/32095/ will fix my problem i will do it. I just dont want to spend an another $200 in parts trying to fix a problem that i am unsure of how to fix in the first place because nothing seems to be working.

I still need to send pictures to the guy at Warn to see what he thinks but i need to buy another camera first lol. I am also wanting to buy a set of milemarker hubs to see if it fixes my problem. When it rains it pours.

 

[DirtDonk]

I believe that Superwinch hubs have a slightly lower profile inner piece that helps, but I would think only if it's a spline depth issue. Which it's not sounding like from your description.

With the hub dismounted from the axle though, it acts the same? So you push the locking mechanism in, and put the large ring back in to hold it, and there is no in or out movement?
Personally, I think Warn was more worried about no play meaning it was bottoming out on something important. I would not think that a tight fitting hub would cause functional problems.
But the part about all of this keeping the knob/cap assembly sticking out with a gap does seem odd.

You may want to have Warn compare the measurement of yours to their drawings, with regard to the inside edge of the cap to some other point. Like you have the line drawn in your first pic.
If the knob is manufactured incorrectly you're just fighting the wind here.
Sounds like you may already have discussed that with them though?

Paul

 

[vash07]

With the hub dismounted from the axle though, it acts the same? So you push the locking mechanism in, and put the large ring back in to hold it, and there is no in or out movement?

With the hub dismounted when i put the inner hub body into the splines. Even if i dont put the outer retaining ring in then put the cap on there is about a .040 gap between the chrome knob and the ford hub i can not get that gap to go away.

I called Warn and asked them if this was normal they said no there should be no gap and the warn hub should have in and out play with the retaining ring installed.

I have no play and the locking hub cap will not sit flush. It does not matter if i am using the Raybestos hub or the OEM Ford hub. Which leads me to believe it is a problem with the Warn hubs but i really dont know what the problem is.

I am getting close to taking a hub to a machine shop and having them turn about .040 off the splines of the hub to make everything push down further. But i am worried that this will get tolerances out of wack with how the locking hubs were supposed to function in the first place.

And i dont know how far i can go before the warn hub body starts contacting the spindle nuts. I am thinking about taking some modeling clay and putting the hub in and pulling it out to see how much room i have right now but it will still be kinda hard to measure but it will still give me a general idea.

 

[DirtDonk]

Whenever I've had stock hubs with too big a gap, I simply filled it in with a finger's worth of silicone sealer.
In the case of the stock stuff, a big gap was from the ring being too close to the end. The large outer ring is what holds the whole thing in place, and if it's not pulling it down then you have a gap and a slight rocking motion sometimes too.
But it did not effect the function of the locking mechanism.

With the Warn, the locking setup is completely encased in the inner body. I imagine if it's too tightly held in place it might not function as easily. But I bet it would still function.
If there is not real solution, then in the end some sealer may be your friend.

You certainly want proper function. And the gap in an indicator only. By itself the gap is not a problem, other than potentially allowing the outside to get in.

Paul

 

[vash07]

Whenever I've had stock hubs with too big a gap, I simply filled it in with a finger's worth of silicone sealer.
In the case of the stock stuff, a big gap was from the ring being too close to the end. The large outer ring is what holds the whole thing in place, and if it's not pulling it down then you have a gap and a slight rocking motion sometimes too.
But it did not effect the function of the locking mechanism.

With the Warn, the locking setup is completely encased in the inner body. I imagine if it's too tightly held in place it might not function as easily. But I bet it would still function.
If there is not real solution, then in the end some sealer may be your friend.

You certainly want proper function. And the gap in an indicator only. By itself the gap is not a problem, other than potentially allowing the outside to get in.

Paul

I didn't really mess with locking and unlocking the hub to much when i had it assembled the first time. I should slap it back together and see if it even wants to lock and unlock. I just knew something was not fitting right and i should sort it out before i did damage to the hubs.

I did put all 6 bolts in just to see if i could kinda draw the chrome cap on and it was getting lopsided and siting at an angle. I will throw it back together and see if i can get them to work with the gap and if they so maybe use sealer.

I have been doing a lot of searching to see if anyone else is having problems and i came across this review on Amazon. I dont know what the guy means by there are "bad ones floating around" but i hope it's not what i bought. I bought mine off ebay from pepboys because they had them cheapest

 

[vash07]

I also came across this guys post from this forum on a google search but he never updated his thread

http://www.classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284025