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Does exhaust pipe sizing affect performance?

sbolejack

Sr. Member
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
357
Loc.
Rogers, AR
I have heard that the size of your exhaust pipe(s) can truly affect the overall performance of the engine and think I may need to make some changes. Recently changed from a stock 302 to a 'Blueprint' 347 Stroker with EFI and it doesn't seem to perform like I thought it should. Currently running Hedman headers, dual 2-1/8"O.D. exhaust with some aftermarket mufflers.

What size exhaust pipe and muffler setup are folks running with a motor like this?

Don't want to hear the drone, but looking for something with a nice overall tone.

Thanks in advance for any insight.
 
Last edited:

dougyounger

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Messages
311
No idea on an answer to your question. Just stopped to say nice avatar!
 

rpmgarage22

Full Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
162
I have heard that the size of your exhaust pipe(s) can truly affect the overall performance of the engine and think I may need to make some changes. Recently changed from a stock 302 to a 'Blueprint' 347 Stroker with EFI and it doesn't seem to perform like I thought it should. Currently running Hedman headers, dual 2-1/8"O.D. exhaust with some aftermarket mufflers.

What size exhaust pipe and muffler setup are folks running with a motor like this?

Don't want to hear the drone, but looking for something with a nice overall tone.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

2 1/8" exhaust? Is it possible it is a 2"? In any event, exhaust diameter is an important, but not sole, component of performance improvement.

Before we get into exhaust, you didn't say what transmission and gear ratio/tire height you have. Those are extremely important factors in the performance "feel".

It is likely that the power band moved way up (in RPM's) with the Stroker. Many do not make significant power gains until you crest the 27-2850 rpm mark. This can be a real problem in the "seat of the pants dyno" if you were already geared "tall" (numerically LOW gear ratio) and/or if you are running taller than stock tires. This will "feel" even worse with an automatic transmission. I won't bore you with the reasons, just trust me.

As long as the above factors are accounted for properly, here is the relationship of exhaust and "flow":
Your engine is really nothing more than a synchronized air pump. The more air that you can "suck" in (intake) combined with the more air that you can "blow" out (exhaust), the more power you will make. It is that simple. But, it's not that easy.

Many factors limit intake and exhaust. The most important things are the ones that you can control. So, we try to run higher CFM-capable carbs/throttle bodies/air cleaners to increase the INTAKE of air. Then, we add headers, "free-flowing" exhaust, and "open chamber design" mufflers to increase EXHAUST.

But, we have to remember that we need a certain level of "scavenging" of the exhaust gases AND we have to have a minimum level of backpressure from the exhaust system to keep the valve train from coming apart ("unshrouding", we used to call it...or, "floating the valves").

And, a Windsor-based Ford requires more back pressure and more scavenging than its bowtie counterparts.

At the end of the day, there is also a theoretical maximum number of CFM that the engine design can flow. Depending on who is yielding the calculator, an SBF can move anywhere between 475 CFM and 590 CFM...and that's the "range" that you need to focus on.

Too large of CFM on the intake side is of no benefit, and can actually reduce performance and create tuning nightmares. Too large of diameter pipe (or too long of a run at too large of a diameter) will reduce scavenging and not provide enough backpressure...again, hurting performance.

So, the answer?

Headers: (really whether shorties or long tubes) with 1 1/2" - (max) 1 5/8" primary tubes and a 2 1/2"-3" collector, with an appropriate reducer cone.

Exhaust pipe: 2 1/4"-2 1/2" diameter seems to be the sweet spot.

Mufflers: If you keep the length of the muffler around the 18-22" size, and match the inlet and outlet diameter to your pipe size, you can choose any of the big named mufflers and be happy.

Although you can run a "X-Pipe" or "H-Pipe" in a Bronco, it really makes servicing difficult for your drivetrain components.

Finally, make sure that the system is throughly sealed. Exhaust "leaks" can kill power and throttle response. Thick flanges on your headers; quality gaskets (like RemFlex), properly torqued; and a little sealant (paste) at all the connections and you should have a great sounding and excellent performing system.

BUT---Look at that gearing and tire size first. You have to operate in that powerband to "feel" those gains.
 

Howard2x4x4

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Apr 19, 2014
Messages
2,439
Yeah, that really is a good answer, helped me also, and I wasn't even looking for help. I was just looking for a good place to put this picture, and I suppose it fits this thread pretty good. I would guess that the dude who owns that ride is of the 'size matters' persuasion.....
 

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sbolejack

sbolejack

Sr. Member
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
357
Loc.
Rogers, AR
Great information and yes I do need to address the tall gears (3.23) and tire size of (35). From what I understand the PO was going for better mileage with the tall gears. Thinking of going to 4:11, but is that still to high?
Thanks for the great information.

2 1/8" exhaust? Is it possible it is a 2"? In any event, exhaust diameter is an important, but not sole, component of performance improvement.

Before we get into exhaust, you didn't say what transmission and gear ratio/tire height you have. Those are extremely important factors in the performance "feel".

It is likely that the power band moved way up (in RPM's) with the Stroker. Many do not make significant power gains until you crest the 27-2850 rpm mark. This can be a real problem in the "seat of the pants dyno" if you were already geared "tall" (numerically LOW gear ratio) and/or if you are running taller than stock tires. This will "feel" even worse with an automatic transmission. I won't bore you with the reasons, just trust me.

As long as the above factors are accounted for properly, here is the relationship of exhaust and "flow":
Your engine is really nothing more than a synchronized air pump. The more air that you can "suck" in (intake) combined with the more air that you can "blow" out (exhaust), the more power you will make. It is that simple. But, it's not that easy.

Many factors limit intake and exhaust. The most important things are the ones that you can control. So, we try to run higher CFM-capable carbs/throttle bodies/air cleaners to increase the INTAKE of air. Then, we add headers, "free-flowing" exhaust, and "open chamber design" mufflers to increase EXHAUST.

But, we have to remember that we need a certain level of "scavenging" of the exhaust gases AND we have to have a minimum level of backpressure from the exhaust system to keep the valve train from coming apart ("unshrouding", we used to call it...or, "floating the valves").

And, a Windsor-based Ford requires more back pressure and more scavenging than its bowtie counterparts.

At the end of the day, there is also a theoretical maximum number of CFM that the engine design can flow. Depending on who is yielding the calculator, an SBF can move anywhere between 475 CFM and 590 CFM...and that's the "range" that you need to focus on.

Too large of CFM on the intake side is of no benefit, and can actually reduce performance and create tuning nightmares. Too large of diameter pipe (or too long of a run at too large of a diameter) will reduce scavenging and not provide enough backpressure...again, hurting performance.

So, the answer?

Headers: (really whether shorties or long tubes) with 1 1/2" - (max) 1 5/8" primary tubes and a 2 1/2"-3" collector, with an appropriate reducer cone.

Exhaust pipe: 2 1/4"-2 1/2" diameter seems to be the sweet spot.

Mufflers: If you keep the length of the muffler around the 18-22" size, and match the inlet and outlet diameter to your pipe size, you can choose any of the big named mufflers and be happy.

Although you can run a "X-Pipe" or "H-Pipe" in a Bronco, it really makes servicing difficult for your drivetrain components.

Finally, make sure that the system is throughly sealed. Exhaust "leaks" can kill power and throttle response. Thick flanges on your headers; quality gaskets (like RemFlex), properly torqued; and a little sealant (paste) at all the connections and you should have a great sounding and excellent performing system.

BUT---Look at that gearing and tire size first. You have to operate in that powerband to "feel" those gains.
 

Cooter_76

Sr. Member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
863

ared77

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
2,906
I went from 3.50's to 4.11's on a V8 3-speed '68 I owned with 35" tires. I was trying to make it more fun to drive, easier to take off w/o clutch chatter, etc. The change definitely helped but afterward I wished I'd gone to an even lower gear.
 

rpmgarage22

Full Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
162
I still don’t see what trans you are running. But, 35’s and 4.56’s are likely a better match.

I like to cruise in the 2400 RPM range...no matter what gear I am in...so, I take my “top gear” ratio and my maximum expected continuous cruising speed (50-55mph in the country, let’s say...), and calculate the final gear ratio I need by working to 2400 RPM.

Here is a great calculator:

https://spicerparts.com/calculators/transmission-ratio-rpm-calculator

With 4.56 diff, 1:1 trans, 35” tires, at 2400 RPMs, you are doing right at 55MPH.

Math is fun!
 

blubuckaroo

Grease Monkey
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
11,795
Loc.
Ridgefield WA
I still don’t see what trans you are running. But, 35’s and 4.56’s are likely a better match.

I like to cruise in the 2400 RPM range...no matter what gear I am in...so, I take my “top gear” ratio and my maximum expected continuous cruising speed (50-55mph in the country, let’s say...), and calculate the final gear ratio I need by working to 2400 RPM.

Here is a great calculator:

https://spicerparts.com/calculators/transmission-ratio-rpm-calculator

With 4.56 diff, 1:1 trans, 35” tires, at 2400 RPMs, you are doing right at 55MPH.

Math is fun!

A major factor when using these calculators is to use the effective tire diameter. That's the radius to the ground (with vehicle weight on the tire) multiplied X 2.
Some of the larger tires have an effective diameter that's a couple inches smaller than the advertised diameter.
 
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sbolejack

sbolejack

Sr. Member
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
357
Loc.
Rogers, AR
Sorry, I’m running a beefed up C4.

I still don’t see what trans you are running. But, 35’s and 4.56’s are likely a better match.

I like to cruise in the 2400 RPM range...no matter what gear I am in...so, I take my “top gear” ratio and my maximum expected continuous cruising speed (50-55mph in the country, let’s say...), and calculate the final gear ratio I need by working to 2400 RPM.

Here is a great calculator:

https://spicerparts.com/calculators/transmission-ratio-rpm-calculator

With 4.56 diff, 1:1 trans, 35” tires, at 2400 RPMs, you are doing right at 55MPH.

Math is fun!
 

Timmy390

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Messages
5,688
Loc.
Conway, AR
Don't fear the gear.......with 35's 4.56 is the way I would do but with a C4, others will have a better opinion....Stock 3 speed in my rig.....

As to the exhaust.....I run headers and 2 1/4 inch dual exhaust on my 351W. No way I would run less than 2 1/4 pipe. An engine is an air pump......More in means more has to get out.....

As a note, I just went to a header, 2 inch exhaust pipe and a Walker Quiet Flow on my 1.3L Samurai and it's like night and day difference. She winds up quick cause she's breathing so much better now....

Tim
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,425
...I do need to address the tall gears (3.23) and tire size of 35 (depending on brand, could be as short as 33.5) with a C4

Boy I'll say!!!!
Even with stock 3.50 gearing and 35's any (normal size) engine you have will be struggling. Even a 460 with grunt tuning would still feel the need for more gearing. You're at an entirely opposite extreme in gearing, and that can't be fixed properly with just more power unless your Bronco is just a freeway-flyer. Which most are not.

In some ways, gearing should actually have been the first thing you changed.
Yes, you still would have needed to factor in whatever engine you would eventually be working with, but changing gears would have really woken up your old engine and might have changed your decision on which way to go with the new engine.
Or not... It's always a package deal. So you're just getting to the other end of the equation now and will be very surprised at how much more of that stroker's power you can use once you get that lower gearing in there.

And oh boy, wait 'till you get the new gearing and really see what your new engine will do!;D
Gonna be fun.

Thinking of going to 4:11, but is that still to high?

Maybe, maybe not. Just like everything else here, it depends on:
1. How the engine is built/tuned.
2. What driving conditions you will use it in.
3. How you want it to feel and act.
4. Which way you're willing to compromise. (big tires, heavy vehicle, no overdrive, always leave some compromise with gearing)

What are the specs on your engine? Is it a crate motor with dyno sheet? Or is it a single-built engine? If built by you for your Bronco, what cam, heads and exhaust are you running? Specifics in it's powerband are what's needed.
And then the next bottom line is, how do you drive it and under what conditions? Freeway flying, rock-crawling, weekend-around-town driving?

But generally speaking, yes the 4.11 would be a good choice if you're at high freeway speeds a lot and don't expect to do any serious off-roading.
A 4.56 would give you more acceleration, better low-speed working, and not limit you too badly at the top end.
Either way though, where the powerband of the engine actually is, will be part of the equation.

Maybe you're lucky enough to have another Ford friend in the area with a 9" 3rd member laying around with good gearing for you to try. If not, just build the rear end only until you're certain your choice of gearing is the right one for you.
This way you only have to change one if you don't like the results.

As someone said, if you're going to use the calculators for help, measure your rear tires exactly, from the hub to the ground with the full weight of the vehicle on them.
Exact knowledge is better than assumptions.

Good luck!

Paul
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,263
Gearing is your problem, not the exhaust. For all practical purposes you don't have a first gear now. With the tire size it is as if you were starting in 2nd gear when in your first. That is why it feels like a dog

500 cubic inch caddy engines breathed through a single small tail pipe. While it does affect performance a little, the gearing is a huge affect. So while your current exhaust may not be optimal, it is close enough.

Don't fear the gear, on a Bronco very true. You need more gear. Before we go through picking a number there is a very important question to ask. Do you plan on changing the transmission to something different and if so how soon? Good gears for the 3-speed are going to be a different choice if putting in an overdrive.

I recently picked up a '77 F250 with a 460 in it. Runs on 32" tires. The factory gearing is 3.07:1. While it does perform good (after I fixed a lot of issues) it doesn't feel like it. The tall gear doesn't let the engine RPM climb quickly. The factory shift point in the C6 is about 4500 RPM and the 1-2 shift is about 50-55 MPH. My well geared daily driver is going into 3rd gear after hitting about 6000 RPM in 2nd gear at 60 MPH. It is a lot more fun. It feels more lively. I bet both have about the same HP and weight. And the daily driver gets better mileage.
 
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sbolejack

sbolejack

Sr. Member
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
357
Loc.
Rogers, AR
This rig is basically a daily driver and will see very little off road action, I have one for that. I want to thank everyone for your input and it gives me great information for moving forward.

Thanks again and I will let you know how things progress as money come in!!
 

BradtheWelder

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
290
Loc.
Moline IL
For anybody who wants to really see a crazy gear calculator, use this one.

http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html

With this calculator you just have to know your transmission and transfer case and it will tell you your speed for each gear and puts in the gear ratio in for any transmission for you. Pretty useful if you want to see if a transmission swap would be good for you or not.
 

Digger556

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
793
It is likely that the power band moved way up (in RPM's) with the Stroker. Many do not make significant power gains until you crest the 27-2850 rpm mark. This can be a real problem in the "seat of the pants dyno" if you were already geared "tall" (numerically LOW gear ratio) and/or if you are running taller than stock tires. This will "feel" even worse with an automatic transmission. I won't bore you with the reasons, just trust me.

rpmgarage made lots of good points, but I would wager this combined with gearing is you main problem. Those awesome looking numbers the engine marketing literature gives you fail to show the whole picture when it comes to engine performance. They usually get bigger numbers by moving the power band up in the rpm range.


This is the same reason diesel's feel so powerful yet make relatively low horsepower. My 225 hp 7.3 diesel would run circles around my 375 hp 351W, especially with a load.
 
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