Door fitting problems

[Bart]

So, I'm working on a '69 Sport that had a lot of body rust. Using TBP (for reference). On the driver's side I'm trying to replace the front fender 1918, inner front fender 1935, front inner fender apron 1900, inner kick panel 1945, front door post ("A" pillar), and lastly the rocker panel. Somewhere, I found a diagram showing the measurements from various points between the front pillar and the rear pillar. I set it up as close as I could to the demensions stated for 4 different year vehicles. All pretty close to one another. In trying to put the door on there is a serious difference in the rear latch parts, something like 3/4" to 1". Even with a !/4" of shims on the bottom hinge I didn't get it to line up. I've had to remove the front pillar several times and even ended up purchasing another one was to look the first one was starting to look like swiss cheese. I must have measured the replacement pillar 50 times to make sure it was still correct according to the printed diagram. It was held in place with vise grips (more than a dozen of them. Experience has taught me that the weight of the door will over ride the power of the dozen grips. So, I had to weld the pillar in place AGAIN only to have the same out come. I'm able to mount the pillar to the door and mock it up in place and them weld the pillar to the apron.
All the body mounts are new and torqued to 40 pound specs.
Advise here please would sure be appreciated.

 

[DirtDonk]

I may have missed it, but I don’t see what dimension that 1 inch is out of.
Is the striker higher, or lower than the latch? Is it further in or out? Or is it that you have a bigger gap in the back?
Sounds to me like we’re talking about height, based on shimming the hinge. But I wanted to be sure.
Did you replace the B pillar also? If so are you sure you didn’t get a 66 or 67 B-pillar?
Did you replace the door?
Definitely post up some pics pictures of what you are talking about.

 

[Bart]

I may have missed it, but I don’t see what dimension that 1 inch is out of.
Is the striker higher, or lower than the latch? Is it further in or out? Or is it that you have a bigger gap in the back?
Sounds to me like we’re talking about height, based on shimming the hinge. But I wanted to be sure.
Did you replace the B pillar also? If so are you sure you didn’t get a 66 or 67 B-pillar?
Did you replace the door?
Definitely post up some pics pictures of what you are talking about.

No, I did not replace the B pillar or the door. So they are both ' 69 Sport.
The 1" is the difference between the level of the striker (part attached to the B pillar). The latch was lower by 3/4 to 1 inch. By adding all 4 shims measuring .060" (total .240") I got it closer to the striker but still low. Luckily, I felt this was going to be a problem and invested in a set of removable door hinges. With a 5/16" dowel rod and measuring 12" between the hinges I can put the door on and off in a minimum of time and effort.
I didn't like fighting 4 shims PLUS to get the door to raise at the rear, so I cut a piece of 3/8" plate, drilled the holes and mounted the lower hinge again. Besides the dowel rod being very tight the latch was above the striker. So, I'm going back to a one piece of 1/4" plate and only having to add maybe one of the .060 shims to get between the 1/4" (striker too low) and 3/8" (too high) position. "IF" this works out I plan on removing the "A" pillar welds and tipping it !/4" towards the rear at the bottom. Then I'd only need to add the one .060 to get everything to line up.
As for the strike/latch being farther out or not. I can only answer that question with the statement that "a couple times, I was able to get the door to latch in place by lifting the door way up". Getting it to reopen was fun also.
Pictures of "so far" to follow. Thanks DD I knew I could count on you.

 

[DirtDonk]

What about the opening overall? Is it square, and is the door fitting in its squarely?
Or does it only square up when you raise the rear of the door?

In its simplest form it sounds like the A-pillar is tilted back at the top.
I know those silly things have to be canted at just the right angles in like three dimensions!
Or maybe this is the body part that delves into the fourth dimension

 

[DirtDonk]

And thanks for the vote of confidence, but I’m anything but a body guy.
I just know that this is a problem area when renewing a Bronco body.
There’ve been some great discussions by some members here who have done a lot of this successfully, with some recent additions by member James Roney, who had a lot to say about the key position of the A-pillar in the overall body fitment.
Including inner fender apron, outer fender, core support, grille, windshield and all that.
And when I asked if the door opening was square earlier, I assume that you are including the fender in all of this?
Have you got the fender, core support and grill all lined up to work with the hood and the windshield and door?
Pretty much a package deal if I remember.

 

[Bart]

What about the opening overall? Is it square, and is the door fitting in its squarely?
Or does it only square up when you raise the rear of the door?

In its simplest form it sounds like the A-pillar is tilted back at the top.
I know those silly things have to be canted at just the right angles in like three dimensions!
Or maybe this is the body part that delves into the fourth dimension

There is/was a chart that gave dimensions between the A & B pillars. Also from the three different front fender screw holes to other spots on the B pillar All three stated that there should be 39" between the center (?) of the screw hole to the raised bump areas on the B pillar. There were other measurements between those 3 screw holes and various body floor parts. To me that would put the A pillar straight up and down. I have a '75 Ranger and used it's as a reference (as well as the chart) to land the A pillar. The '75 has not had the A or B pillars disturbed.

 

[Bart]

And thanks for the vote of confidence, but I’m anything but a body guy.
I just know that this is a problem area when renewing a Bronco body.
There’ve been some great discussions by some members here who have done a lot of this successfully, with some recent additions by member James Roney, who had a lot to say about the key position of the A-pillar in the overall body fitment.
Including inner fender apron, outer fender, core support, grille, windshield and all that.
And when I asked if the door opening was square earlier, I assume that you are including the fender in all of this?
Have you got the fender, core support and grill all lined up to work with the hood and the windshield and door?
Pretty much a package deal if I remember.

Like you, I'm a lot of things but a body man I'm not. I'll try to answer the questions you put forth.
Before I start I put the hinges back without any shims and took a picture, up close it drooped 5/8". After installing the 4 thickest shims I got it to about an 1/8" from the top of the quarter panel top. I added the thinnest shim I had and it all lined up very nicely. Problem is NOW the latch and striker hit before the door closes.
Are you familiar with the chart with measurements I spoke of in the last text?
In reference to my '75 Ranger, I can and have removed the driver's side fender to measure the dimensions of it also. The 39" I mentioned is accurate there also as is the rest of the door opening measurements. I did not take the door off. I believe that'd be another can of worms.
I can't seem to find the attach link. I had that option some time ago. Maybe it has expired and I need to renew it. Any information on that?
Like I said, with the 5 shims (seems excessive) the door fits at the top but does come in contact with the bottom of the quarter panel at the bottom if I were successful in getting the door to close.

 

[blade]

I had the same problem you are having. I needed to move the lower end of the drivers door, the shims needed to be in the door. The problem I had was that the door skin limits how much you can shim that area unless you cut the opening more which would look weird. I remembered reading a post that mentioned the factory would bend the hinges to adjust the fit, I checked the hinge and sure enough there was a bow in it. My doors came from a different bronco so I figure they were adjusted for that vehicle. I bent the hinge back flat and it put the door right where it needed to be.

 

[Bart]

I had the same problem you are having. I needed to move the lower end of the drivers door, the shims needed to be in the door. The problem I had was that the door skin limits how much you can shim that area unless you cut the opening more which would look weird. I remembered reading a post that mentioned the factory would bend the hinges to adjust the fit, I checked the hinge and sure enough there was a bow in it. My doors came from a different bronco so I figure they were adjusted for that vehicle. I bent the hinge back flat and it put the door right where it needed to be.

Thanks for the reply. I don't understand. Putting the shims "IN the door"? Do you mean shims between the hinge and the door, not the A pillar? In my mind, I don't see how that would change anything. My problem is that the move shims I use (more than a quarter inch) to raise the trailing upper edge of the door the closer the latch gets to the striker. When the top of the door is level with the top of the quarter panel, the latch and strike hit at the strike screw plate.
Thinking about your statement, do you mean to bend the TOP hinge? That would make sense. Bringing the factory bend more into a straight line might correct the problem (as well as removing some of the shims). I've been thinking about tilting the A pillar forward at the top (again removing shims at the bottom). About how much (estimate) did you straighten the bend? That's the only place the shims are installed. Thanks for the thoughts. Feel free to correct any of my thoughts here.

 

[blade]

I had the same problem you do where the latch was hitting on the plate that mounts the striker. I put the shims inside the door between the door and the hinge to move the door torward the front of the vehicle. That moved it a little bit but it still wasn't enough with the amount of adjustment I could get. I had to bend the bottom hinge on my bronco, I bent the side that attaches to the A pillar so that it pulled the door forward. I also hammered the mounting face of the A pillar in a little bit using a sledge and a flat plate, you shouldn't need to do that because yours are new.

 

[DirtDonk]

But either way, I think Bart is in a different situation, because his body isn’t welded together yet. So he can still change the angle of the pillar itself to match up to the striker.
Or more importantly, check every angle, including rear body mounts and all the other things previously mentioned, and set the door up correctly before the body is welded together.
That way, it’s all lined up without needing shims, unless there is some final tweaking to be done after all.

 

[Bart]

I had the same problem you do where the latch was hitting on the plate that mounts the striker. I put the shims inside the door between the door and the hinge to move the door torward the front of the vehicle. That moved it a little bit but it still wasn't enough with the amount of adjustment I could get. I had to bend the bottom hinge on my bronco, I bent the side that attaches to the A pillar so that it pulled the door forward. I also hammered the mounting face of the A pillar in a little bit using a sledge and a flat plate, you shouldn't need to do that because yours are new.

That makes things clearer in my mind's eye. I was just out there looking at it I can see that between the door and hinge would move the door forward. That might just be the ticket.

 

[Bart]

But either way, I think Bart is in a different situation, because his body isn’t welded together yet. So he can still change the angle of the pillar itself to match up to the striker.
Or more importantly, check every angle, including rear body mounts and all the other things previously mentioned, and set the door up correctly before the body is welded together.
That way, it’s all lined up without needing shims, unless there is some final tweaking to be done after all.

Only correction is that there are some welds, 13 down the front of the A pillar and 5 or 6 on the back side. I tried to not weld but the weight of the door played havic with the vise grip pliers. It maybe worth it to grind off the welds, tilt the top forward maybe a quarter inch. I'm thinking that might be the correct amount to be able to remove the bottom shims. My only thought in that maneuver is that would throw off the measurements mentioned in that chart of 4 vehicles. The 39" would be more like 39.25" on the top and 39" at the bottom.
Your thoughts on the change? Blade feel free to speak up. Thanks to all.

 

[Bart]

After a half dozen attempts to get the door, striker & latch to play nice, they didn't so I bit the bullet and removed EVERYTHING. Thanks to Jon Hanna I can now attach pictures. Problem is that this stupid AOL/verizon/who knows what else keep changing things around. I've taken photos with my cell phone and tried to down load them to my lap top, after saving them I can't find them anymore. So I'm going to another email and try it there. Life is so complicated!!!!

 

[Bart]

The first photo is the driver's door without shims.
The second photo is the top of the A pillar and windshield frame alignment
Third photo is the fender removed
Forth is the chart I used to align the A pillar
The last photo is the door alignment with 1/4" of shims between the A pillar and the quarter panel.

Last night after I remove EVERYTHING, I started by "trying" to install the rocker panel to work my way forward. Some trimming required to get the rocker panel close to the bottom of the quarter panel. I figure today I'm going to tec screw the A pillar in place (maybe using the measurements listed in the chart). I'll measure the '75 EB to confirm dimensions. One thing bothers me is the measurements are down to 1/4 to 1/8", but does not tell a person exactly from where to where. Example, the 4" from the top screw hole to the bottom edge where the windshield frame sits; is it straight up and down measurement or angled from the center of the screw hole to the edge? I'll measure the '75 and go from there. Same with the rest of the measurements. '75 measurements will over rule the char.
I feel like the new tires will be out of warranty before I get this door hung!
Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[blade]

If You haven't taken all of the weld loose yet try this. use an 1/8" shim on the bottom an then using tape to hold them put three 1/8" washers on the top of the hinge that attaches to the door. If that makes the line of the door parallel to the body line and the gap is right but the door is low you need to raise both hinges on the body,

 

[Bart]

If You haven't taken all of the weld loose yet try this. use an 1/8" shim on the bottom an then using tape to hold them put three 1/8" washers on the top of the hinge that attaches to the door. If that makes the line of the door parallel to the body line and the gap is right but the door is low you need to raise both hinges on the body,

Yes, ALL the welds were cut off. Everything is back on with tech screws. I've got it really close but after shutting the door it would not open again without a lot of pulling force. I discovered that pulling harder on the inside door opening rod that it comes open without effort. I just removed the complete latch with the intentions of cleaning it and getting it to work smoothly. Not opening from the outside handle maybe a case of adjustment.
I'll try your suggestion after cleaning and reinstalling the latch system. Thanks

 

[Bart]

Yesterday, after removing the latch mechanism and cleaning it in gasoline, I played with it for a while to learn which lever does what. I learned that the outside lever had worn to the point it missed the lever it was supposed to work against. I bent the outside lever sideways enough to get it to land on the second lever every time. Everything is working smoothly now. There was one of those red plastic retainers that had the top edge broken off. I can see that the rod would have to go farther in order to operate the outside lever. I'll see if the local auto parts stores has any replacements, if not it off to the Bronco houses and waiting. Ford may have them but really do like their stuff, if you know what I mean.
D.D. I've been thinking about the tops of the doors (felt tracks). The 66 had them bolted on where as later they were spot welded. I've heard about others on this site cutting the spot welds and drilling and taping for easy removal. My son (where the '69 Sport will eventually end up) talks about taking off the top in the summers in Oregon keeping the windows down and removing the felt tracks and he wants to replace the felt tracks (something for him to do someday).
While this message is directed at Dirt Donk (aka DD) I'd appreciate anyone else who would like to chime in.

 

[DirtDonk]

Yeah, you can actually buy the bolt-on upper window frames separate now.
I believe they can be easily retrofitted to the later doors.
Though I haven’t tried it, so take the “easily” with a grain of salt.
Never cut the welds on my 71 because, as much as we talked about wanting removable uppers, the need was never really that great.
I never really felt the need enough to do, even though the top was off every summer (and is off permanently now) and got used to the look of the frames without a top.
And being able to roll the windows up actually sometimes came in handy.

My 68 is already the bolt-on style (68 was the last year) and I haven’t really wanted to mess with it. So, even though I’ve been inside the doors in done the latches and realigned the frames, I didn’t remove them.

The hard top is likely staying on the 68, to take full advantage of the air conditioning and insulation.

 

[Bart]

Yeah, you can actually buy the bolt-on upper window frames separate now.
I believe they can be easily retrofitted to the later doors.
Though I haven’t tried it, so take the “easily” with a grain of salt.
Never cut the welds on my 71 because, as much as we talked about wanting removable uppers, the need was never really that great.
I never really felt the need enough to do, even though the top was off every summer (and is off permanently now) and got used to the look of the frames without a top.
And being able to roll the windows up actually sometimes came in handy.

My 68 is already the bolt-on style (68 was the last year) and I haven’t really wanted to mess with it. So, even though I’ve been inside the doors in done the latches and realigned the frames, I didn’t remove them.

The hard top is likely staying on the 68, to take full advantage of the air conditioning and insulation.

I sent my very expensive removable SS latches back for the same reason. The '75s top (soon with A/C for Texas heat) will be staying on. The '69 that son will someday get will have the top off from time to time (he says).