Engine won't start!

[mickphatmac]

I just drove this thing to Super Celebration West and back without incident!!

So newest problem... Rig had been running really well, until you come to a stop. It dies.
I had been messing with the carb and timing but couldn't really get it dialed in to just idle without giving it gas constantly...

Yesterday, no start at all! Turns over just fine.
Checked the fuel pump and gas is rolling
fuel/CHECK
Used my son Cam's running '73 Coil - no fire
Pulled my Pertronix out and put in old points (with MY coil) - No fire

So I believe I have 1 Brand new set of points that I will plug in tonight with Cam's coil and see if maybe BOTH of my coil and elec. ignition pooped out???

I also messed with distributor +/- to no avail.

Like I said, it turns over very well, just dosn't fire. At All

 

[darrell82]

On my 72 the distributor may have been the original one. The octagon cam that the points ride on were so worn that even a new set of points wouldn’t break contact to initiate the spark. I had to file the point’s mounting ears so that I had more adjustment. I’ve since gone to an MSD billet distributor. I’ll see if I can find an old set of points to take a picture of it. Good luck!

Darrell


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[darrell82]

Had a pic on the phone.


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[mickphatmac]

Thank for the info Darrell, Ill look into that!

 

[Rustytruck]

take the cap off and crank the engine and see if the rotor turns.

 

[gnpenning]

You need to check for spark and follow the spark. Checking to see if the rotor is turning needs to be done as mentioned. Depending on what you find pull the coil wire and check for spark. Next would be to check for spark at the plugs. Check for spark at the right time. A timing light will jump a few steps for you.

How did you check for fuel??

 

[mickphatmac]

I know I’m probably beating a dead horse at this point but rotor turns! I changed out my Pertronix for brand new points that I had in the glove compartment then I used Cam’s Pertronix, both of those with Cam’s coil and then I pulled a spark plug wire to see if I was getting spark, no spark and then I pulled the center wire off the distributor that runs to the coil and that was also sending no spark!
Sooooo...
I figured it had to do something with the ignition switch or the wire running from the ignition switch to the distributor/coil.
It looks a “little ratty” and I couldn’t find a diagram with a red wire with a yellow line. But it’s attached to the pink one which I believe is the resistor and coil wire?

Any suggestions?
Take the ignition apart and run a new wire?
Take the ignition apart and use the painless ignition wiring repair cap? And rewire?

 

[Rustytruck]

Check the small wires on the starter solenoid. I terminal sends power to the ignition system check for voltage in cranking and with just the key on.

 

[DirtDonk]

Yes, a volt-meter is going to be your friend at this point.
Before you remove the parts, you make sure the power is getting to them or you just go to extra work or worse still, add new problems to diagnose.

It could definitely be the ratty wires, or the ignition switch. But a volt-meter will tell you what's up fairly quickly with some of the items listed.
Your pink wire is your resistor wire as you suspected. Sometimes it's pink right out of the ignition switch, sometimes it's partially Red w/green stripe which is the color of the wire out at the coil. Red w/yellow could be the green is faded? Happens a lot on some of our old wiring.
If you do find that you have power on the positive side of the coil, then there is something wrong with the trigger, or you have two bad coils. Which is not likely since you said it ran in your son's '73 correct?
If so, then something is up with the distributor. Maybe just not grounding to the engine very well. Some one just recently ran afoul of the jumper wire on the Pertronix having not been installed at all. Another one had theirs fall off.
The connection between the distributor body and the engine block can be tenuous sometimes. A little nudge one way or the other can stop the spark.

What year is this Bronco by the way? If it's a '70 or older then you also need to check the two rectangular firewall connectors that pass all the wires into the engine compartment and back. Definitely can be a trouble spot.

Good luck. But find the power.

Paul

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, to get down to the basics, when you say you put in the points, you mean points and condenser. And the gap is set to .018 on the points, and .030 on the Pertronics. Also the Pertronics should have 12 volts all the time, no resistor wire. I would guess your coils are made for the the Pertronics, which are different then points and condenser coils (but I think you would have spark). All the coils should be hooked up with + to the power feed and - to the distributor. If you have a tach I would leave it unhooked for now. Good luck

 

[mickphatmac]

Thanks for the good info Paul and B RON CO!

Mine’s a ‘68
Viper Mentioned that the RED/Yellow stripe might be for brake warning light circuit and old alternator voltage regulator, currently running front Explorer serp with 4g setup and If grounded it could be dropping voltage enough to prevent spark.
So should I trace that wire and try to re-run it or just cut it out?
As far as I can see it behind the dash from the ignition all the way up until it disappears the wires are frayed out of its casing! I know that can’t be good HA!!

Thinking about getting the Ignition switch socket repair ignition repair thingy.

 

[mickphatmac]

I'm going to remove that ratty wire and try to track it down and maybe replace it.....
Thanks again Guys!!!

 

[DirtDonk]

The wire next to the ratty one is your resistor wire to the coil. It's the one you should be testing at the moment, as your other one was strictly for the original voltage regulator and nothing else for the '68 year.
Presumably the Violet (purple) wire is your brake warning lamp proof-out circuit. Check to see if it's got a black push-on connector at the end and is slipped over a blade connector on the side of the ignition switch body.

Bend the frayed one away from the connector and twist the loose conductors together just to keep it away from things it should not be near. Then with the key OFF test for voltage on that wire only. Should be zero.
If this is the wire I'm thinking of (would originally have been Green w/red stripe) with the key in the ACC position you should also have zero power.
With the key in the ON position you should see 12v or whatever is on the Yellow wire (Yellow is power IN to the switch) and if you compare that to what the battery reads at the moment you can determine if there is any voltage drop at the ignition switch.
A little tiny bit is acceptable, but you really don't want to see more than half a volt drop on any of the wires there.

But back to the ignition, only the ugly puke-brown/pink wire is important. Find out if it looks anything like the other one at any point in it's run. You should find that for at least part of it's run, it is covered in a heat-resistant (probably tar based) outer sleeve and is taped up outside of the rest of the harness so that the heat it generates does not effect the other wires.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Kind of hard to imagine how someone mangled that wire so badly. Like instead of cutting it, they yanked it!
Although it's very likely that at one point someone put a Scotch-Lock type connector on it to get power for some other accessory and then mangled the conductors and insulator at that time. Seen it a lot over the years, but not quite like yours.

Paul

 

[mickphatmac]

Great info PAUL!!! ThankYou!!
So if I’m running Pertronix ignition, it would be feasible for me to run a wire from the positive side of the coil all the way down to that pink/brown wire and splice them together and it should work!?

 

[DirtDonk]

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't that wire already go all the way through the firewall? Or is it cut somewhere under the dash too?
One thing always stated on the side of the wires is that they should not be cut and spliced. Now, that may just mean to not cut them in the middle because that would effect their resistance value (resistance is a function of length, among other things), or it might mean because the conductor is so small inside (size of the conductor effects resistance too, among other things...) that it's hard to crimp two wires together.

Some members here have crimped on to resistor wires though I'm pretty sure, so hopefully they'll chime in and give us their experiences when working with resistor wires.
But yes, if your switch is still working, connecting that wire to the positive side of the coil would be correct.
Just remember that you don't want that wire powering the Ignitor module in the distributor. For that you want a wire that gives out the full 12v signal. That would be the other buggered up wire in fact. If you can salvage that Green w/red wire you can use it for many things. But the Pertronix Ignitor would be the perfect candidate for using that wire.

One reason for this is that both the Green w/red and Red w/green (Pink) wires from the ignition switch are the only ones that are hot in ON only. They're dead in OFF and ACC so you can listen to the radio and do other stuff without having the ignition powered up and risk overheating the ignition components.

Paul

 

[mickphatmac]

Great (and very smart) info!
ThankYou!!!
Well this whole thing is kind of a mystery, I ended up cutting all of that Ratty wire out from under the dash except for about the last inch that’s connected to the pink/brown wire on the ignition switch.
I ran a wire from that to the positive side of my coil and instantly started up upon turning the key!?!?
Same Pertronix, Same coil! BUT, I was using my sons distributor cap and rotor, those are the only two variables that changed.(along with that other wire possibly grounding everything out?)
I was still getting 12v off of the pink/brown wire that runs into the engine bay so when I disconnected the “work around wire” and hooked it back up the correct way, once again it started up just fine!
The only thing that I noticed was on my rotor, on the inner cylinder there is a little key that fits into the distributor cylinder it looked like it had been mashed a little to one side and quite possibly rotated like 3/16 of an inch off center so I don’t know if that’s enough to create a No Spark situation or what but that’s the only thing I could find!

AnyHooooo... I’m up and running so thank you all for your time and your help I appreciate all the great information and taking a few moments out of your days to help out!!!

 

[DirtDonk]

I was still getting 12v off of the pink/brown wire that runs into the engine bay so when I disconnected the “work around wire” and hooked it back up the correct way, once again it started up just fine!

You will see 12v even on a resistor wire when there is no load. The volt-meter is not an actual load, so it does not drop the voltage. Only if the engine has been running for awhile and the wire is very hot, or if the distributor is in just the right position to allow the coil to become the load, will you see the voltage drop to more around the 8-9 volt range.

The only thing that I noticed was on my rotor, on the inner cylinder there is a little key that fits into the distributor cylinder it looked like it had been mashed a little to one side and quite possibly rotated like 3/16 of an inch off center so I don’t know if that’s enough to create a No Spark situation or what but that’s the only thing I could find!

No, by itself that is not enough. If the rotor was in fact allowed to be offset slightly by the deformed key (which I don't think it would be, given the amount of engagement the key has with the shaft) all it did was change the "rotor phasing" in relation to the cap. The ignition timing would remain the same, but the spark would jump from a slightly different position. All else working fine, the spark should be strong enough to jump even that much farther.
Yes, if it changes enough it can create a non-start situation. But I'm pretty sure it would have had to change much more than what I see on that rotor.

Glad it's running! One more thing off the list.

Paul

 

[sprdv1]

Sounds like my kind of luck. Hope you finger it out