Exploder brkt... quick measurement needed

[nvrstuk]

Building a York and TC p/s pump bracket (Exploder look-a-like) and I need a quick measurement on the TOP idler pulley that mounts on the drivers side Exploder bracket.

How much deflection does the TOP idler pulley push down on the serp belt? This would be btw the alternator on the pass side and the P/S pump pulley on the drivers side. Approx. is ok...

THANKS... hope to finish this tomorrow evening...

 

[DirtDonk]

About this much?


Sorry I can't measure it for you, since this one isn't in front of me right now. Just throwin' stuff at you to confuse the issue instead!
With all the setups out there nowadays, I'm sure someone will have that for you.

Good luck. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

Paul

 

[nvrstuk]

Huge help....thanks Paul.

I was concerned with putting too much pressure on what looks like structurally, the weakest link/pulley in the system.

The idler on mine doesn't have the "guide" ridges so to speak on each side of it like yours does...of course you wouldn't design it so those ridges would be guiding the belt onto the pulley all the time but it does add strength to the pulley.

I think I'll look for a pulley like yours in my collection as I'm worried about mine deflecting some since it's just stamped out of sheet metal... it worked before but...

Bracket is done, fits good, just making sure this stamped sheet metal pulley isn't working too hard!!

 

[EricLar80]

Can you better explain what measurement you are looking for? I can give you the location of the pulley in relation to the head bolts, if that helps. It may not be perfectly stock, but it is where I put my pulley.

Eric

 

[EricLar80]

Re-reading your request, you just want to make sure it doesn't hit the hood? You can put play-doh or some clay on top and shut the hood.

Oh, one more thing that is a little counter intuitive...

You actually want the belt to wrap the pulley quite a bit. If the belt is barely skimming the surface of the pulley, the belt is more likely to wander around so the pressure on the pulley helps keep the belt centered. This is especially the case the further apart the pulleys are from each other since the belt will have more flex in it.

If you don't put enough pressure, you have to use guide ridges. With more pressure it is not needed as much.

Don't worry too much about the force on the pulley - I think they are more than able to handle it.

Eric

 

[nvrstuk]

I am looking for a measurement for the amount of deflection that the idler pulley puts in the SERP belt between the alternator on the passenger side and the power steering pump on the driver side.

It seems like some idler pulleys have the guide ridges on each side even though they ride on the flat side of the belt and some are not.

BTW....no hood clearance issues what so ever. Just looking to see how much deflection is typical in the belt between the alternator and the p/s pump

 

[EricLar80]

I am looking for a measurement for the amount of deflection that the idler pulley puts in the SERP belt between the alternator on the passenger side and the power steering pump on the driver side.

It seems like some idler pulleys have the guide ridges on each side even though they ride on the flat side of the belt and some are not.

BTW....no hood clearance issues what so ever. Just looking to see how much deflection is typical in the belt between the alternator and the p/s pump

Ok, sorry, I can't help you with that measurement since mine isn't stock. My setup has 2.5" from the top of the pump pulley to the bottom of the idler pulley over a 9" distance, which makes it a little over 15 degrees. Stock is quite a bit more aggressive than that.

After having built my own bracket for the explorer setup, my preference would be to put as much deflection you can in there without getting too close to the water pump. It will give you more room for the TFI module and the belt will track so much better. If you don't have enough deflection, you can literally grab the belt and slip it off the pulley pretty easily, which is why I think they put the guide ridges on some of the smooth pulleys.

If you plan a lot of high RPM play time, then that is also a reason why you want it to be on tight.

Another thing is to make sure the idler pulley is perfectly straight with the rest of the pulleys so the belt doesn't wander off, or cause friction that results in damage to the belt. I ended up bolting the mounted surface of the bracket to a mill and machining the pulley mounting surface flat to make sure it was right on. No issues with belts after a thousand miles or so on mine.

Hope that helps.

Eric

 

[nvrstuk]

That's very similar to what I have already done. If you draw a straight line btw the alt and the top of my York pulley the line would already be below the TFI module. My goal was to stuff the York low as I didn't want that to be the only thing you could see when you opened the hood.


What years and models did the "ridged" pulleys come on...

Yeah, I continually bounce off 6K rpm with my strrroker ... on long snow pulls I'll run over 5,000 rpm for 1 1/2 minutes... some might call that abuse but I built it knowing that I would be running it the same as I ran my old 351W that I built in '86 with over 100K on it...sold it to a buddy and he's now running it.

 

[xcntrk]

Huge help....thanks Paul.

I was concerned with putting too much pressure on what looks like structurally, the weakest link/pulley in the system.

The idler on mine doesn't have the "guide" ridges so to speak on each side of it like yours does...of course you wouldn't design it so those ridges would be guiding the belt onto the pulley all the time but it does add strength to the pulley.

I think I'll look for a pulley like yours in my collection as I'm worried about mine deflecting some since it's just stamped out of sheet metal... it worked before but...

Bracket is done, fits good, just making sure this stamped sheet metal pulley isn't working too hard!!

There's 2 different styles of upper idler pulleys. The one with the ridges as shown in Paul's pic, and the rounder/flatter version as shown in my pic below. A side note for Paul; the version with the ridges is INCOMPATIBLE with the WH Saginaw explorer serp kit because it uses a specialized bolt which also serves as the bushing for the bearing to ride on. That bolt setup won't work with the WH serp kit. Instead, the kit is looking for the other style of upper idler pulley which does not use a special bolt and comes with a bushing adapter for the bearing to ride on - allowing use of a standard bolt. The instructions don't provide any detail on this point. One of a couple issues I experienced with this kit.

 

[Hozr]

Not sure if you got your answer Brian. Stock Exploder is:

Alt-Idler 21 degrees down
Idler-PS 47 degrees up

68 degrees total

 

[nvrstuk]

Perfect, I appreciate the time and numbers.

Thanks PNW neighbor!


BTW, how DO you keep the engine so clean???

 

[DirtDonk]

...A side note for Paul; the version with the ridges is INCOMPATIBLE with the WH Saginaw explorer serp kit because it uses a specialized bolt which also serves as the bushing for the bearing to ride on. That bolt setup won't work with the WH serp kit. Instead, the kit is looking for the other style of upper idler pulley which does not use a special bolt and comes with a bushing adapter for the bearing to ride on - allowing use of a standard bolt. The instructions don't provide any detail on this point. One of a couple issues I experienced with this kit.

Thanks for that info. I'm figuring we were completely unaware of the issue from the prototypes most likely being of the other type.
Did you mention that when you were doing it? If so, sorry I missed or forgot it. I wonder if that's a year-model thing, or just something that gets changed out during normal wear and tear?

I'll see about putting in a special note on that.

Thanks again.

Paul

 

[66horse]

Thanks for that info. I'm figuring we were completely unaware of the issue from the prototypes most likely being of the other type.
Did you mention that when you were doing it? If so, sorry I missed or forgot it. I wonder if that's a year-model thing, or just something that gets changed out during normal wear and tear?

I'll see about putting in a special note on that.

Thanks again.

Paul

Y'all definitely need to update the instructions. We wasted hours trying to figure out this problem for the Build for KOH. And your support line did not know about the issue.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[nvrstuk]

2 different bolt types:

Correct me if wrong...

1) Stock Exploder type with flat idler pulley has a bolt running thru the #6203 brg and uses a soft plastic looking "o"ring that slips over the bolt and helps center the bolt in the brg while you tighten the bolt up...

2) Mustang type?- flat idler pulley with ridges on the outer lip, uses same #6203 size brg and the bolt runs thru some piece of alum that centers the idler pulley on the bracket

Are there any other different configurations?

thanks...

 

[EricLar80]

2 different bolt types:

Correct me if wrong...

1) Stock Exploder type with flat idler pulley has a bolt running thru the #6203 brg and uses a soft plastic looking "o"ring that slips over the bolt and helps center the bolt in the brg while you tighten the bolt up...

2) Mustang type?- flat idler pulley with ridges on the outer lip, uses same #6203 size brg and the bolt runs thru some piece of alum that centers the idler pulley on the bracket

Are there any other different configurations?

thanks...

Does that mean that the thread for each type is different? I think most bearings have a 17mm internal diameter and the pulley surface is centered with the bearing. Some will offset differently with a spacer. I think the bolt that came with my pulley was M10x1.25 thread, but it may have been 1.5 thread.

Eric

 

[nvrstuk]

The Exploder setup has a 10mm x1.5mm bolt with a flat idler pulley

Not sure what the other pulley is OR if it's an Exploder or Mustang idler pulley.

What is the OD of "other" pulley?

The two Exploder setups I have are both 3.5" OD

 

[DirtDonk]

Sorry you had to go through that guys. But if either of you have any pics of the bolts in question, or more details of the exact reason the one bolt/pulley is not compatible, we'd like to see/hear them.
Are the threads different? Does it put the pulley out of alignment with the belt? What exactly does it do that won't let it work properly?
If you have some, send any info, pics or suggestions to sales@wildhorses4x4.com (attn: PaulB if you like) and we'll add the notes. Or, if it's a simple change to our bracket that can be made to take that into account, that would be an even better result.

I would hazard a guess that the reason we don't mention it is the prototyping was done on Explorer brackets we had in the shop, which happened to have the smooth rounded pulley. Then, the testing models (at least two different customers) were evidently just by chance done on the same style. So no red flags went up during that initial development process. At least not that I heard about.

Sorry too, that when you called, nobody was aware of the two distinct styles and how to get you quickly through your frustration. We (including myself) thought an Explorer drive system was an Explorer drive system and that was it. I've seen the two styles of pullies obviously, but that in itself never even jumped out as unusual, or as something to look in to.
Even when looking up replacements, they only ask you if you have smooth or ribbed. No question of what year, or whether open or with edge flanges.
I wonder if they were used on the bottom of the passenger side, and sometimes get swapped around? Seems like I've seen both down there too though.

Now I'm going to have to dig up the two systems I've got squirreled away to see what they have. I've also got one with the plastic cooling fan, while the other has a steel one. But didn't look for any other variations at the time.

Anyway, I know you've already spent a lot of time with your respective hair-pulling, but if you don't mind a little extra time, by all means please send us what info you have when you get a chance.

Thanks.

Paul

 

[nvrstuk]

My project is fine as I'm not using any W/H parts on my setup, mostly custom made brackets but stock parts... that's why I was thinking of using what seems to be the tensioner pulley from the lower pass side in place of the upper idler pulley. It is a heavier duty part from a construction standpoint...my main concern is longevity and easy parts-store replacement when the brg wears out...

Gotta love Ford and how they change 1/2 the parts it seems like btw model years so hot rodders and EB owners are always having these problems..!! thanks engineers!!

 

[Viperwolf1]

I believe I have one of each of these bolts. I can get some pics this afternoon. Same thread. One has a 17mm shoulder machined into it. The other uses the plastic bushing.

 

[DirtDonk]

Excellent. Thanks.

Paul