First Time 302 windsor build plan?

[crashnburn]

Hi All,
I am building my first motor starting with a block and piston kit from summit:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SES-5-60-04-200#overview
I got the block and kit (pistons, gaskets, etc) new for free from a buddy, but now I need to plan and shop for the rest of the engine. I have a stock bronco engine to take parts off (77 302, very tired but running when pulled). I would like to build a budget engine that can handle: (75% ) the Rubicon/Fordyce rock crawling, (10%) driving on the highway, (15%) high speed desert/sand dunes.

I have never built an engine and I need to stay on Budget! Sticking with my carb.
Input would be appreciated, shooting for 300 horse/ 300 torque.

My current 77 Bronco stock 302 with stock radiator, manifolds, and a newer Holley truck avenger 670 carb (probable re-use), Stock rebuilt c4, dana 20 twin sticked with hd output, front dana 44 (4.88 grizzly locker), 35 inch BFG KM2 on 15x10 aluminum beadlocks chromoly axles and ctms, rear 9 inch, strange 3rd, 4.88 gears, 35 splines, spool with drum brakes. My bronco is HEAVY with 2" family roll cage, rock sliders, protofab bumpers front and rear, spare tire, jerry can, and cooler. Seats 4 (my wife and two kids and a black lab of course!).
Thanks!

 

[Rustytruck]

what size are your tires and gearing? Automatic or stick? you are asking 2 different things out of your motor. rock running requires an engine that stays cool and good low end torque and lots of heavy armor. Sand dunes requires a good motor with wide power band high rpm horse power and torque and as light a Bronco as you can run. every pound counts. before you do anything make sure you choose your tire size and gearing first. doesnt matter what motor you build the gearing has to be right or you might as well keep your old motor.

 

[crashnburn]

what size are your tires and gearing? Automatic or stick? you are asking 2 different things out of your motor. rock running requires an engine that stays cool and good low end torque and lots of heavy armor. Sand dunes requires a good motor with wide power band high rpm horse power and torque and as light a Bronco as you can run. every pound counts. before you do anything make sure you choose your tire size and gearing first. doesnt matter what motor you build the gearing has to be right or you might as well keep your old motor.

Sorry

what size are your tires and gearing? Automatic or stick? you are asking 2 different things out of your motor. rock running requires an engine that stays cool and good low end torque and lots of heavy armor. Sand dunes requires a good motor with wide power band high rpm horse power and torque and as light a Bronco as you can run. every pound counts. before you do anything make sure you choose your tire size and gearing first. doesnt matter what motor you build the gearing has to be right or you might as well keep your old motor.

EXACTLY! If I have to choose the main objective is to run cool and slow on the rocks. My truck has 4.88's, C4 Auto. All of that is working well, but my motor is super tired, with tons of blow by and got 1 mpg on the rubicon so its time for a new motor! Thanks

 

[Broncobowsher]

A 300 HP 302 isn't going to be a fun engine on rocks. To get that HP target the RPM will be way higher than what is good for rocks, but will be fun in the sand.

Get some good heads. There are other brands, but the Trickflows were great for me. Just the basic ones.
Keep the cam mild. You will want a roller cam for that roller block, specs really close to a stock 5.0 mustang cam.
Run some compression. Sure you need premium fuel, but it just adds torque everywhere in the powerband.

The mustang-ish cam will idle just fine and have good off idle drivability, great for rocks. The big heads will flow to make the power as the RPMs go up. With 10-10.5:1 compression you can have over 300 ft-lb torque and enough HP to be happy. Spin the motor to 6000 for the sand or idle all day long on the trail.

Don't chase the HP number, chase the drivability and just let the HP come as it wants. Good heads don't need big cams to be fun.

 

[m_m70]

Good heads don't need big cams to be fun.

exactly.......love my TFS heads. actually Bowsher recommended to me ~8 years ago and I've been happy with them since!

 

[chuck1022]

Hi All,
I am building my first motor starting with a block and piston kit from summit:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SES-5-60-04-200#overview
I got the block and kit (pistons, gaskets, etc) new for free from a buddy, but now I need to plan and shop for the rest of the engine. I have a stock bronco engine to take parts off (77 302, very tired but running when pulled). I would like to build a budget engine that can handle: (75% ) the Rubicon/Fordyce rock crawling, (10%) driving on the highway, (15%) high speed desert/sand dunes.

I have never built an engine and I need to stay on Budget! Sticking with my carb.
Input would be appreciated, shooting for 300 horse/ 300 torque.

My current 77 Bronco stock 302 with stock radiator, manifolds, and a newer Holley truck avenger 670 carb (probable re-use), Stock rebuilt c4, dana 20 twin sticked with hd output, front dana 44 (4.88 grizzly locker), 35 inch BFG KM2 on 15x10 aluminum beadlocks chromoly axles and ctms, rear 9 inch, strange 3rd, 4.88 gears, 35 splines, spool with drum brakes. My bronco is HEAVY with 2" family roll cage, rock sliders, protofab bumpers front and rear, spare tire, jerry can, and cooler. Seats 4 (my wife and two kids and a black lab of course!).
Thanks!

i too have tired 302. does your buddy need anymore friends since he gives them engines?

he is like the Oprah Winfrey of engines....


you get an engine

and you get an engine

 

[crashnburn]

A 300 HP 302 isn't going to be a fun engine on rocks. To get that HP target the RPM will be way higher than what is good for rocks, but will be fun in the sand.

Get some good heads. There are other brands, but the Trickflows were great for me. Just the basic ones.
Keep the cam mild. You will want a roller cam for that roller block, specs really close to a stock 5.0 mustang cam.
Run some compression. Sure you need premium fuel, but it just adds torque everywhere in the powerband.

The mustang-ish cam will idle just fine and have good off idle drivability, great for rocks. The big heads will flow to make the power as the RPMs go up. With 10-10.5:1 compression you can have over 300 ft-lb torque and enough HP to be happy. Spin the motor to 6000 for the sand or idle all day long on the trail.

Don't chase the HP number, chase the drivability and just let the HP come as it wants. Good heads don't need big cams to be fun.

Thank you for the input. Can you post a link to the heads that you recommend? My other goal is to run pump 87 gas due to some of the out of the way places I hope to be (Mexico??). I agree, I don't need a monster motor, but I thought 300/300 was a good middle ground, but I don't want to be fighting it in the rocks, I want to idle around. I also don't want a barky cam, but can you link a recommendation of a cam.
The big purchases: Crank, Cam, Heads. Those are the recommendations I need. Thanks everyone for the input!!

 

[crashnburn]

i too have tired 302. does your buddy need anymore friends since he gives them engines?

he is like the Oprah Winfrey of engines....


you get an engine

and you get an engine

Ya, buddies RULE! We help each other out with tools and dead bronco rescues! The knowledge on Classic Broncos is amazing!

 

[pcf_mark]

You list crank in your big purchases - if you are buying a crank get a stroker that will help your power everywhere.

Once you settle on a head find a great machine shop (not a good one, a great one) even if you need to ship the heads to them. Brand new or not a proper 3 angle valve job with the correct margin widths on the head and then the right two back cuts in the valves will get you great flow numbers at low lift to mid lift. This will give you better torque everywhere and strong signal to the carb. Also make a street friendly cam act like a bigger cam because the port is flowing more air at every lift point not just at the gross lift number.

An aluminum head allows 1 point more compression compared to aluminum. You can run 10:0 on an aluminum head with 87 octane with 8-12 degrees of timing. Get wild with timing you can get it to knock or if you run very hot.

Once you settle on a head call a few cam companies and tell them what you are doing and your gearing they will help you with a roller that throws the valves open fast to get good flow from the head w/o having so much lift and duration it is a dog down low. Rollers let you get the best of both worlds.

 

[Rustytruck]

I personally would run the cam 4 degrees advanced which should lower the power band 500 RPM. everything comes in sooner. if you plan to run 10-1 compression you will need to use aluminium heads and premium gas. I doubt 87 octane will do. I would also be looking at a 5.0 roller motor and not a 302.

 

[Speedrdr]

Recently had a 5.0 roller motor rebuilt (built ?) and went the stroker route. Put AFR aluminum heads on to let the engine breathe, as the engine builder said, and to hopefully let me run pump gas (87) without pinging/knocking. So far, so good. As soon as I get brake and fuel lines run I’ll drive it over to a shop with a dyno and see where the power band lives.
You definitely want some good flowing heads on it.

Randy

 

[tirewater]

Take the block, crank and bearings to a engine/machine shop and have them measure the bearing clearances or size the bearings. If you don't want to do that, invest in a decent set of bore/outside micrometer gauges (at least .0001" accuracy) so you can measure them yourself. Don't do what I did and trust the shop that grinds the crank, and use plastigauges to measure clearances. I had to re-rebuild my engine because of low oil pressure - second time around I bought the proper equipment (and a new crank) and every thing is fine.

 

[crashnburn]

Thanks all, still very much in the research phase. I am shooting for working on the whole set up this winter. The other goals:
pump 87 gas, NO LEAKS, great drive ability (my wife drove to the trail head this weekend in Deer Valley CA in the Sierra NV), I want this thing to run cool!
I have looked into machine shops but not their yet, still rounding up a bottom end... Thanks again for all the input!

 

[Broncobowsher]

87 octane usually means shooting for 9:1 compression. Still go for a good head design. Late model block with the 1-piece rear main really helps with having a dry engine.

 

[Wes harden]

I know OP has a c4, so the 1 piece rear main needs a new flex plate or no? What about a 69 3spd manual different fly wheel needed ? 50 oz external balance.

 

[crashnburn]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SES-5-60-04-200#overview
This is the block I am working with, yes 1 peice rear seal. But what about putting a 351 crank in the bottom end?? My buddy has an extra 351 I could use for the bottom end, is that possible? I google it, but find nonsense...

 

[Timmy390]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SES-5-60-04-200#overview
This is the block I am working with, yes 1 peice rear seal. But what about putting a 351 crank in the bottom end?? My buddy has an extra 351 I could use for the bottom end, is that possible? I google it, but find nonsense...

The main journals are not the same between the 302 and 351. 351 has a 3" main journal, 302 is 2.25" as I recall.......

Tim

 

[Rustytruck]

Things to watch for in your build. ford uses small rod bolts so use good ARP bolts and loc tite them. the factory distributor / oil pump drive shaft is small and weak use a good ARP heat treated one.. for the small block ford there is at least 3 sets of timing gear sets and the parts cant be mixed up or you can get in trouble with the timing cover. there is a wide set with narrow fuel pump eccentric, a narrow set with wide eccentric and a set for the 5.0 without the mechanical fuel pump. Get a good roller timing set with multi index crank gear. then there is the conversion to roller lifters to save big headaches. You have to watch the Cam shaft and the gear on the end of the distributor. Then you have to watch the pin holding the distributor gear on. if you have a single roll pin you need to swap it out to a better pin. do not wast your money on the high pressure high flow oil pump the stock one is fine just get a good one. check and clean the oil pump pick-up. check for cracks. watch the lifter push rods oil flows through them make sure they a clean and clear. dont use the stock 6 degree timing setting it leaves to much meat on the table try around 12 degrees before top dead center. ford messed with the deck height in and around 1974 so check the deck height before ordering parts like pistons so you can build the power you want. replace the bolts holding down the intake get at least grade 5. Stay far away from fram 1250 intake gaskets get the better metal reinforced ones. watch the port sizing and water jacket size and location. there are a lot of options.

Anyway this it what I would do.

 

[crashnburn]

Thanks for the good info. The budget gets out of control when I look at new crank/etc. I think now what i might try is a hybrid junkyard motor! That would give me a new block/pistons and a used set of heads/crank/ and all the front accessories. I found a mid mile explorer 5.0 for $400...

 

[Broncobowsher]

More than likely the Explorer motor will be good as is and not even need a rebuild. Store the free block for later.