Harmonic balancer blues...

[bigmuddy]

While the rig is down, I would suggest "upgrading" to the newer duraspark electronic ignition with a newer coil. Its worlds above the old points style.
Or one of the petronix units are decent and fit inside your old cap.
Or if you want a reliable unit that looks out of place, go the chevy style HEI unit. Really nice units IMO but ugly as sin on a ford motor.

 

[ntsqd]

Were I going to do an electronic IGN conversion today I'd use an HEI module with the Ford D-S II distributor and the later model Ford's "E-Core" coil or the GM equivalent. It's not quite plug and play, but it's a pretty darned simple wiring project. About the only aftermarket, hot-rod/racing type part that I would even consider using would be the GM IGN module from Davis Unified Ignitions.

Grab ALL of a D-S II system from the junkyard, I'd even get the module or at least the pigtail that the wire loom from the distributor plugs into off of the D-S II module. Make an aluminum heat-sink like mount for the GM module (last one I used a chunk of 2x2x1/4" AL angle) and absolutely, positively use the thermal grease that will come with the GM module. The only viable substitute for that thermal paste/grease is known as "Arctic Silver" and isn't always easy to find.
It may be documented here how to wire this, but I'm unaware of that. I do know that "Slant 6 Dan" has documented it on the Mopar Slant 6 forum and shouldn't be too hard to find.
The GM modules do use a lot of power, putting the IGN system, or at least the GM module part of it on a relay is a really good idea.

I did this conversion on my old '65 Valiant. The GM module was an easy Order of Magnitude better than any of the Mopar IGN modules. I've not run it back to back against a D-S II module, but given how dramatically better the slant engine ran with the GM module I am certain that it is a step up over the D-S II module. Not to dis the D-S II module as it's pretty good. I just think that the HEI module is worth the extra effort.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Were I going to do an electronic IGN conversion today I'd use an HEI module with the Ford D-S II distributor and the later model Ford's "E-Core" coil or the GM equivalent. It's not quite plug and play, but it's a pretty darned simple wiring project. About the only aftermarket, hot-rod/racing type part that I would even consider using would be the GM IGN module from Davis Unified Ignitions.

Grab ALL of a D-S II system from the junkyard, I'd even get the module or at least the pigtail that the wire loom from the distributor plugs into off of the D-S II module. Make an aluminum heat-sink like mount for the GM module (last one I used a chunk of 2x2x1/4" AL angle) and absolutely, positively use the thermal grease that will come with the GM module. The only viable substitute for that thermal paste/grease is known as "Arctic Silver" and isn't always easy to find.
It may be documented here how to wire this, but I'm unaware of that. I do know that "Slant 6 Dan" has documented it on the Mopar Slant 6 forum and shouldn't be too hard to find.
The GM modules do use a lot of power, putting the IGN system, or at least the GM module part of it on a relay is a really good idea.

I did this conversion on my old '65 Valiant. The GM module was an easy Order of Magnitude better than any of the Mopar IGN modules. I've not run it back to back against a D-S II module, but given how dramatically better the slant engine ran with the GM module I am certain that it is a step up over the D-S II module. Not to dis the D-S II module as it's pretty good. I just think that the HEI module is worth the extra effort.

Another option I have had great success with comes from the motorcycle world. Replacing points with a magnetic pickup isn't always an option. But points through a remote TFI module and firing an E-core coil (module and coil of the same junkyard truck) makes a great ignition system. Very tolerant to dwell variation, set the point to just about anything where they are open about half the time and it is perfect. Just doesn't care. Condensor, unhook it. Points don't arc, almost no current going through them, just makes a square wave signal, just like the PIP signal from the EFI pickup. Did this to my boat after fighting 3 failed fancy aftermarket ignition boxes. Wasn't what I did, first one was dead out of the box, second had loose parts rattling around inside when it arrived, third ran good for about 5 minutes and started running really bad before swapping back to points. Then did the TFI module and it runs better then ever. https://www.49ccscoot.com/manuals/FORD TFI electronic ignition.pdf

The GM style HEI can be good (if you get a real Davis HEI), or can leave you stranded (any of the cheap knockoffs). The knockoffs are well known for breaking the shaft. No fixing that without replacing the distributor. Ugly. And they typically hit the hood brace as they are that big and bulky. They are a no-brainer install. A switched power wire is all that is needed.

 

[jamesroney]

Were I going to do an electronic IGN conversion today I'd use an HEI module with the Ford D-S II distributor and the later model Ford's "E-Core" coil or the GM equivalent. It's not quite plug and play, but it's a pretty darned simple wiring project. About the only aftermarket, hot-rod/racing type part that I would even consider using would be the GM IGN module from Davis Unified Ignitions.

Grab ALL of a D-S II system from the junkyard, I'd even get the module or at least the pigtail that the wire loom from the distributor plugs into off of the D-S II module. Make an aluminum heat-sink like mount for the GM module (last one I used a chunk of 2x2x1/4" AL angle) and absolutely, positively use the thermal grease that will come with the GM module. The only viable substitute for that thermal paste/grease is known as "Arctic Silver" and isn't always easy to find.
It may be documented here how to wire this, but I'm unaware of that. I do know that "Slant 6 Dan" has documented it on the Mopar Slant 6 forum and shouldn't be too hard to find.
The GM modules do use a lot of power, putting the IGN system, or at least the GM module part of it on a relay is a really good idea.

I did this conversion on my old '65 Valiant. The GM module was an easy Order of Magnitude better than any of the Mopar IGN modules. I've not run it back to back against a D-S II module, but given how dramatically better the slant engine ran with the GM module I am certain that it is a step up over the D-S II module. Not to dis the D-S II module as it's pretty good. I just think that the HEI module is worth the extra effort.

Not a fan of the Pertronix? I know that the older Pertronix 1 had some issues with reliability, but I heard that the Ignitor 2 had solved all that. @Broncobowsher I like the GM one wire HEI, but the vast majority of Bronco owners don't know to replace the pink resistor wire in the factory harness, and usually end up running them at 8V...which causes a lot of drama. I suppose a fellow could add a relay but then it's really not a drop-in. And of course you need a body lift.

One thing I do like about pertronix is that you can keep your leftover points and condenser in the glovebox as a trail spare. One thing I do NOT like is that the tach never seems to work with older tachs.

I'm allergic to duraspark. Prior to the internet, the various control modules were not well understood, and documentation was non-existent. Various color strain reliefs, and impossible to re-use connectors with various pin configurations resulted in the "magic box" problem. The only way to 100% get duraspark to function was to take the entire system from a running vehicle, including the engine harness. So I avoid them like the plague. 40 year later...it seems that the Bronco community has reverse-engineered the duraspark solution and found the magic recipe. Unfortunatley, by the time that happened, I moved on to EEC-4.

I think the OP will be fine with breaker points. A decent dwell meter makes life easier.

 

[ntsqd]

Pertronix make really good simulated range targets. Not a fan, at all. Ever. Think "thread glue". Rank right down there with Unilites and anything Jacobs. And I'm beginning to feel the same way about MSD.
That most who use a Pertronix feel the need to carry their old points and condenser should say a lot about them. I've never felt the need to carry a spare Ford or GM IGN module or any other part of one of those those systems.

I'm not a fan of the huge HEI dist. cap or its coil location. The size was only necessary because of GM's early spark plug gap spec (.06") for those systems. Once they made that spec more reasonable (.045") the need for the uberlarge cap went away. Even GM abandoned it when the TBI's first appeared and they went back to a more normal sized dist. cap. HEI did give us a good control module. Another plus out of the coil in cap HEI system is that it gave us the first of the e-core type IGN coils. Those showed that we didn't need to have oil filled IGN coils and that an e-core coil could meet OEM durability requirements.

Only issue that any of my D-S II conversions has ever had was when one of the pick-up coil wires got into the reluctor and caused a out of time misfire. It was bad, but that was a conversion into an I-H distributor and I should have known better than to leave those wires unsecured. Especially since it was for MISF. (He CAN break an anvil while playing in a sandbox.)

 

[nutter3]

Were I going to do an electronic IGN conversion today I'd use an HEI module with the Ford D-S II distributor and the later model Ford's "E-Core" coil or the GM equivalent. It's not quite plug and play, but it's a pretty darned simple wiring project. About the only aftermarket, hot-rod/racing type part that I would even consider using would be the GM IGN module from Davis Unified Ignitions.

Grab ALL of a D-S II system from the junkyard, I'd even get the module or at least the pigtail that the wire loom from the distributor plugs into off of the D-S II module. Make an aluminum heat-sink like mount for the GM module (last one I used a chunk of 2x2x1/4" AL angle) and absolutely, positively use the thermal grease that will come with the GM module. The only viable substitute for that thermal paste/grease is known as "Arctic Silver" and isn't always easy to find.
It may be documented here how to wire this, but I'm unaware of that. I do know that "Slant 6 Dan" has documented it on the Mopar Slant 6 forum and shouldn't be too hard to find.
The GM modules do use a lot of power, putting the IGN system, or at least the GM module part of it on a relay is a really good idea.

I did this conversion on my old '65 Valiant. The GM module was an easy Order of Magnitude better than any of the Mopar IGN modules. I've not run it back to back against a D-S II module, but given how dramatically better the slant engine ran with the GM module I am certain that it is a step up over the D-S II module. Not to dis the D-S II module as it's pretty good. I just think that the HEI module is worth the extra effort.

I'm doing this in my 75 highboy I am rebuilding. Putting the HEI module in a hollowed out motorcraft ICM box with the Arctic thermal grease. I had read that almost any coil would work. ntsqd, is the later model ford TFI coil just better, or is it required for it to work? I was going to try it with the coil I had with the DSII ignition setup.

https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/

 

[DirtDonk]

Have not messed with anything inside there in 23 years next month... but, also probably have not driven the bronco more than 8,000 miles in the last 23 years

Never in my life have I experienced 23 years, or even just 8,000 miles, without having to tweak, clean, re-adjust, fine-tune, or just generally throw a cuss word or two at points.
More like 23 months, or 800 miles!
Ok, so I've had them run well for extended periods of time, and I was quite a tinkerer when younger with more time, so was messing with points just because I could. But to have them run this long without a quickie tune-up, is bordering on miracle level luck.
Even just the time involved can reduce the effectiveness of the points. Building up a layer of oxidation on the breaker surfaces, or by other means

One thing I do like about pertronix is that you can keep your leftover points and condenser in the glovebox as a trail spare.

It's a main sales point in their favor still to my mind. Get you there and back, even if there is a fifteen minute downtime.

I think the OP will be fine with breaker points. A decent dwell meter makes life easier.

I'd be interested in hearing if just a bit of tweaking can get it back to like-new running.

Paul

 

[ntsqd]

I'm doing this in my 75 highboy I am rebuilding. Putting the HEI module in a hollowed out motorcraft ICM box with the Arctic thermal grease. I had read that almost any coil would work. ntsqd, is the later model ford TFI coil just better, or is it required for it to work? I was going to try it with the coil I had with the DSII ignition setup.

https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/

The various E-core type IGN coils aren't a requirement for the D-S II system to work, but the system works better when using one of them on straight 12 volts. I've experienced all of the traits that the OP in your link mentions. If you want to keep your oil filled coil you can. James mentioned above that running a D-S II on less than 12VDC can cause some weirdness, but I never experienced that in the Econoline or in the Ranchero. I do think that using the E-Core coil and running it all on 12 VDC is the better option. When I moved to the E-Core coil on the Ranchero I also changed it to run on 12VDC. However, if there's esthetic appeal to keeping the oil filled coil (a 'Yellow Top"?) then I'd run the D-S II on 12VDC, but leave the coil running on it's resistance wire. Supposedly the modules control the coil's current, but if the coil is made to run on a lower voltage I'd leave it that way.

BTW, I read some speculation in that link about if any of the aftermarket HEI modules are better than an OEM module and like what we've seen with D-S II modules I don't think so. With one exception. An early DUI module that MISF bought. We tested its dwell up to as high as he was willing to freewheel the engine. That module had a solid and stable 45° of dwell all the way up to 5,000 RPM. A criticism of the early GM HEI modules was that their dwell fell off at higher RPM. That is one of the reasons that it's rare to see an HEI in an older race car.

 

[DirtDonk]

Pertronix make really good simulated range targets. Not a fan, at all. Ever. Think "thread glue". Rank right down there with Unilites and anything Jacobs. And I'm beginning to feel the same way about MSD.

What didn't you like with Jacobs? Mine was amazing.
Frankly, I've never had a bad experience with even the Pertronix 1 models either. I did fry one once, with a rookie mistake, but that was on me. So I'm not sure why so many seem to have had issues with them over the years. Making sure you have the right voltage is probably one key, but I'm guessing your installations were correct.
My Jacob's was an amazing setup. Could throw sparks far enough to shock passersby! Hah!

That most who use a Pertronix feel the need to carry their old points and condenser should say a lot about them. I've never felt the need to carry a spare Ford or GM IGN module or any other part of one of those those systems.

Now we're diverging in our thinking. Frankly, why would anyone NOT carry a spare part that could get them home?
It's not that "most feel the need" at all. It's even part of their advertising front and center. That if anything does fail (and back then, literally EVERYONE was afraid of electronic "black box" failures), knowing you can get home is a sales bonus. Same for the Jacobs, but they simply put a switch in their wire harness so you could switch back to stock if your CD box ever gave up the ghost. Which I never knew anyone had experienced. Sounds like you did?
You've been going off road long enough to know that keeping trail spares handy for that odd need is a great thing to keep in mind. I got off the Rubicon one time because I had a mechanical fuel pump in the back box! And back then, they were not exactly known for failing regularly. Yet I felt the need for a spare.
Their statement that if anything goes wrong, you can put your points back in, is in fact a selling point. Especially back in the day of not trusting ANY electronics!
I knew more people with failed factory GM HEI modules than any other single type of ignition. But that was back then (seventies and early eighties) and even though they can now be quite reliable, why on earth would you choose to NOT carry a spare ignition module with you? Of any type!
My next setup (if not distributorless) will likely be a gutted Ford case with DUI or Pertronix HEI module inside. Unless someone comes out with a better setup. Maybe even an aftermarket DIS?

Only issue that any of my D-S II conversions has ever had was when one of the pick-up coil wires got into the reluctor and caused a out of time misfire. It was bad, but that was a conversion into an I-H distributor and I should have known better than to leave those wires unsecured. Especially since it was for MISF. (He CAN break an anvil while playing in a sandbox.)

Only bad experiences I've had were with cheap replacement modules. With the MSD made Ford Motorsport replacements, I never had a failure.
I can completely understand those that are intimidated by the wiring. But once you get past the fear, the wiring isn't that hard to understand either.
But cheap parts are hard to live with...

Paul

 

[ntsqd]

If you extend that thinking of carrying spares that you might need to get you home you end up with a Scout II that weighs 7800 lbs. before you load it for a trip. Ask me how I know this.

In industry there is a phrase "Mean Time Before Failure" (MTBF). It is a statistical average derived from testing many of the same part until they fail and noting how many hours/weeks/years/mile/parsecs each completed before they failed. OEM's look at this sort of testing a lot because it affects their warranty claims. I've never seen it even mentioned for anything aftermarket.

I've found that using OEM parts along with regular maintenance means that I rarely need to worry about carrying a spare. If I could not find a D-S II module in the junkyard and had to buy a new one, then yeah, I'd carry a spare one of those. But if I can find a working OEM Ford D-S II blue strain relief module in a junkyard then I'd not worry about a spare. I *might* carry a spare HEI module just because they're so small and easy to stash somewhere.

 

[DirtDonk]

Well, that’s kind of my thinking as well. It is a critical electronic part, and it is really small!
They almost fit in a bronco ashtray.
I guess I am one of “those guys”. I even carried spare lightbulbs in my Lido boxes so that I didn’t have to worry about getting home or to the store before replacing.
If a light burned out, whether it was at the grocery store parking lot, driving along the highway, or out on a trail somewhere, I just pulled over and stuck the spare in. I guess I just have a spare parts mentality.
Hey, that might be a great forum username for someone here!

Speaking of spares, I started out my motoring life with spare points and condensers in the toolbox in the trunk. I’m sure I got those habits from dad.

 

[ntsqd]

I'd rather have parts that I can rely on, and be able to enjoy the trip. No need to go looking for more to do, it will find me.

 

[Blitzen72]

Never in my life have I experienced 23 years, or even just 8,000 miles, without having to tweak, clean, re-adjust, fine-tune, or just generally throw a cuss word or two at points.
More like 23 months, or 800 miles!
Ok, so I've had them run well for extended periods of time, and I was quite a tinkerer when younger with more time, so was messing with points just because I could. But to have them run this long without a quickie tune-up, is bordering on miracle level luck.
Even just the time involved can reduce the effectiveness of the points. Building up a layer of oxidation on the breaker surfaces, or by other means

It's a main sales point in their favor still to my mind. Get you there and back, even if there is a fifteen minute downtime.

I'd be interested in hearing if just a bit of tweaking can get it back to like-new running.

Paul

I drove it down to Rocklin just this morming, spun harmonic damper and all... she still runs pretty darned smooth, y'all are making me feel like I'm driving a time bomb now...

On the 90 mile drive down to to Lodi last weekend, it had a slight hesitation to accelerate about a third of the way into the accelerator pedal. Push past, and she opened up and ran like a cat.

Early that morning, driving down Auburn Folsom road, I was able to get her to backfire twice, intentionally keeping the pedal at that flat spot a few seconds, then stomping past. Could not get her to repeat that on the afternoon drive home.

That's what prompted me to think maybe timing her and tuning her up would be a good thing.

 

[ntsqd]

From looking at the dampdudes page you can buy a replacement damper outright, and then get your core deposit back when your old one gets there.

 

[DirtDonk]

I drove it down to Rocklin just this morming, spun harmonic damper and all... she still runs pretty darned smooth, y'all are making me feel like I'm driving a time bomb now...

Ha ha ha! No, not a time bomb. But definitely worth a quickie tuneup and check of the points.
Because they really do age and wear.
You might be able to bring it back to it tiptop shape.
We used to always do it regularly.

I never had any problems, or any hatred of points and condenser distributors. But when I realized that the electronic ones were pretty reliable, I decided to switch over just to regain some of my own free time so I didn’t have to always mess with them.
They never left me stranded, but I was certainly very intimately familiar with them.

 

[Broncobowsher]

The harmonic damper is for rotational vibrations. You really won't feel those.
I knew a guy who spin the outer ring, took it off, and drove years without it.
Ford Y-blocks are easy to spot a 312 from smaller engines. All the smaller (256, 272, 292) were just a crank hub. Only the 312 got the damper.

There is a story in the Boss book about Stroppe who was working on an issue with the 223 straight six. The engine had a torsional harmonic at a specific RPM that would break the crankshaft. The fix was a hotter cam that would rev through the critical RPM band fast enough. That engine could have used a harmonic damper. That engine could have used a lot of other things as well.

I'm sure a lot of people have run without the ring. I wouldn't do it forever. Belt and accessories running is sure to help.

Somewhere I have a really cool book on vibrations. Covers torsional vibrations. There is also a cool chapter that covers Hotchkiss axle steering shimmy (Death wobble to us). That is where I learned how cool the TCI Rattler crank damper really is. Also used in some trick spring car engines where the counterweights are drilled and a rolling weight put in the cavity. Effectivly the same idea as the TCI rattler but inside the crankshaft.
Duesenbergs have capsules of Mercury in/on the crankshaft for vibration control. I am sure it ran quieter than bearing rattling around inside.

So no instant destruction. But do get it replaced in a timely manor.

 

[ntsqd]

Shoot, there goes my "the sky is falling" post.

I've seen one of those Rattlers many moons ago, never seen/heard one run.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Shoot, there goes my "the sky is falling" post.

I've seen one of those Rattlers many moons ago, never seen/heard one run.

My understanding is they run smooth. Just at startup and shut down you might get a little rattle as the weights fall down. Once at idle there is enough force to keep them flung out and quiet. Normal running they don't rattle, the weights just roll around. Reading the physics behind how they work I think they are probably the best design, but people don't like the noise and it would scare the normal car owner. And they are serious overkill for most anything.

 

[ntsqd]

Meh, just put a straight tooth gear drive behind it and you'll never hear it.......
dang, but those things are annoying. Glad they've gone out of fashion.

FWIW when I looked at the damperdudes page most of their balancers where in the $120-$150 range, and the Rattlers were $350ish on Summit.

 

[Blitzen72]

Pulled all 8 plugs today after mwmorial day celebrations down at Auburn cemetery... cylinders 1,4,5,&7 all had a layer of soft dry soot on them. Cleaned, regapped to 0.035", polished the 'sparking surfaces' with 450 grit wet or dry paper, and swapped so the ones that looked clean coming out went into the cylinders that had soot on them, and the sooty plugs into the 'good' cylinders to see if it was a plug or a cylinder issue. Used the same 450 grit to 'polish' the contact surfaces of the points. Tried to fire it up and for 5 minutes was in a panic that I'd killed her - she wouldn't fire up... finally got her to fire up, idled a lot faster, did set the jets on the 2 barrel in maybe another half turn, set the idle up a little faster, and took her for a test drive... no real noticeable performance increase, my plan is to check the 8 plugs out in a few weeks, see if the same cylinders are still sooting up, and decide if I really want to strip yet another part of her originality out and put in the petronix electric setup into her....