Help with Axle Wedge fit?

[NM_outdoors]

Hey bronco buds. As part of my '70 build project, I'm swapping my D30 for a D44 out of a '76 EB and it's missing the wedges. Ordered new wedges from JDuff along with their 3-1/2" monster system. Was assembling the c-bushings/wedges/ and arms for a test fit and realized the contour (radius) on the wedges is bigger than the D44 (maybe fits a D60?). I called the Duff folks and was told they only come in one size (one size fits all?). So I bolted it all together with the caps using an impact and it's not going together very well. It seems to be bottoming out with 1/4-3/8 gap left between the arm and cap. I lubed the bushings and they're started to "squish" out the sides (excessively?) and the impact wrench is working harder than it seems like it should. Not going any further until I get the right wedges or it's decided that I'm over thinking this!? Eventually, I need to pull it all apart to weld wedges after geometry is set and that will be a while since this is a frame off project and is missing everything (drive train/body) that will affect the final suspension ride height and castor. My thinking is that I should buy wedges that are designed for that tube diameter (2.75") and it should bolt up correctly. Is there an overall measurement difference, front to back over the wedges, between a D30/44/60?? Ive been pretty clear with Duff on the swap from my '70 D30 to the '76 D44 so im assuming they shipped the correct wedges (and bushings?). Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

 

[needabronco]

Like any Fab work, there will be cutting, grinding and fitting required in order for everything to fit correctly. As for the tight fit, C bushings are a bear to install!

 

[NM_outdoors]

Like any Fab work, there will be cutting, grinding and fitting required in order for everything to fit correctly. As for the tight fit, C bushings are a bear to install!

Right. Does that mean the overall wedge/tube assembly is going to "stack" longer and that i need to mill the wedge radius to the correct radius (and location!)? It seems that, with the D44 having a larger housing tube, the overall length over the wedges would be larger and maybe a spacer could be used between the cap and arm (instead if modifying the wedges)? Sorry, but the geometry of the two different assemblies (30vs.44) seems such that any mods to the wedges' contours should be done ACCURATELY. Anyone have an overall length (tip to tip) of the 44 wedges when welded in place? I'll pull the dimension off the 30 and compare.…

 

[70_Steve]

So I bolted it all together with the caps using an impact and it's not going together very well. It seems to be bottoming out with 1/4-3/8 gap left between the arm and cap. I lubed the bushings and they're started to "squish" out the sides (excessively?) and the impact wrench is working harder than it seems like it should.

First, I would strongly suggest that you not use an impact wrench on the radius arm cap bolts. These are best done by hand, so they can be drawn up evenly. You should have noticed that the bolt hole clearance in the cap is pretty tight, not allowing for the kind of misalignment that comes from overtightening one bolt on one corner, and cocking the c-cap.

What brand c-bushings are you using? I recently replaced mine and originally bought Prothane bushings. They fit badly, as if there was just too much urethane. They squished out the sides even before I had the caps tightened. A friend had just installed a set of Daystar bushings and they fit perfectly. So I bought the Daystars and am very happy with them.

Anyone have an overall length (tip to tip) of the 44 wedges when welded in place? I'll pull the dimension off the 30 and compare.…

The fit and dimensions of the Dana 30 wedges and the Dana 44 should be exactly the same. As far as the fit of the radius arms, the Dana 44 is a bolt-in swap for the Dana 30.

 

[NM_outdoors]

Appreciate the feedback. I hear you and realize the D30 to D44 is supposed to be a simple bolt in swap but I think my problems are coming from the difference in the housing tubes (1/4" different in diameter since D30 is 2.5" and D44 is 2.75") and, since I'm using the D30 bushing cap, there's no way it will be the same stack up. My gap is about 1/4" which is what I'd expect from the difference in tube sizes. Maybe I should locate some D44 caps? or build a spacer for each side? The problem with using spacers is that I would also have to elongate the front spring cup hole too. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow since I'm having trouble conveying my problems/questions.

 

[70_Steve]

I hear you and realize the D30 to D44 is supposed to be a simple bolt in swap but I think my problems are coming from the difference in the housing tubes (1/4" different in diameter since D30 is 2.5" and D44 is 2.75") and, since I'm using the D30 bushing cap, there's no way it will be the same stack up. My gap is about 1/4" which is what I'd expect from the difference in tube sizes. Maybe I should locate some D44 caps? or build a spacer for each side? The problem with using spacers is that I would also have to elongate the front spring cup hole too.

As needabronco say, "some fab work required!"

I unbolted my Dana 30 and bolted in my Dana 44. Same radius arms... Same c-caps. There is no such thing as a "Dana 30 c-cap" or Dana 44 c-cap" They are all the same!

If your new wedges fit to the Dana 44 axle tubes such that they are bigger, then make them fit. Harbor Freight has angle grinders cheap these days. If I was buying new wedges, I want to fit them myself. Meaning, I'd expect to have to grind on them a bit to get them to fit.

Second time... What brand c-bushings are you using?

 

[NM_outdoors]

I'm fine with doing any fab work required but, although the wedges are castings (implying the geometry on these isn't super critical), I'm reluctant to take an angle grinder to the radius contour of the wedge or the angular surfaces on the part that mates to the bushing (which are JDuff- sorry for the delayed response 70_steve!). I don't feel the problem is with the bushings. The problem is the wedges are designed for a larger tube dia. (D60?) since that's what most guys are ordering wedges for. Unfortunately, the turkey (PO) that I got this D44 from was too much of a tight-ass to just buy new wedges for his 1-ton axles and ground these off. Axle work isn't something I've done much of and I didn't anticipate the "one-size-fit-all" wedges..... Not a big deal but I'm just trying to go with the best solution and I appreciate you guys setting me straight.

Seems like the amount of "hand" grinding needed on any of these surfaces to make up for that (big?) 1/4" gap could create geometry problems though. If it comes down to it, I'll set it up on a mill and re-cut the radius to the correct size (and location!) or fab some spacers and slot the front spring-cup holes.

My preference would be to find some D44 wedges!

Will attempt to post a couple pics (newbie here)....

There is no such thing as a "Dana 30 c-cap" or Dana 44 c-cap" They are all the same!

This is good to know! If you did this swap and replaced the wedges, how did you deal with the 1/4" difference in tube diameters (assuming your wedges were a one size fits all)?

Thanks for all your help and patience.

 

[70_Steve]

... I'm reluctant to take an angle grinder to the radius contour of the wedge or the angular surfaces on the part that mates to the bushing (which are JDuff- sorry for the delayed response 70_steve!). I don't feel the problem is with the bushings. The problem is the wedges are designed for a larger tube dia. (D60?) since that's what most guys are ordering wedges for.

...or fab some spacers and slot the front spring-cup holes.

Please, please, please, don't fab spacers to take up that 1/4" gap.

I reread my first post, and especially the comments on the c-bushings. Maybe I should have included more information.

As mentioned, I bought Prothane bushings to begin with. Ordered from one of the vendors here, but came in a Prothane box. Started to install them, and also as I mentioned, I always use an old-fashioned ratchet to tighten the bolts, just so the bolts get tightened evenly to help avoid the "Bronco Lean". The Prothane bushings started to squish out from under the c-caps and radius arm with probably 1/2" left to tighten. By the time I had only 1/4" left to go, I just could not even tighten the c-cap bolts by hand with a 1/2" drive ratchet. To me... Crazy stuff. And the bushings were way distorted. I'm a pretty big guy (6' 5"- 260lbs) so I bet I was putting at least 150 ft/lbs torque on those bolts, and they would not move. So I have no doubt your impact stalled.

The Daystar bushings installed exactly as you would expect they would

I really doubt James Duff makes their own c-bushings. It would be interesting to find out who makes them.

Have you made a measurement from "tip to tip" on the new wedges installed around the Dana 44 axle tube?

This is good to know! If you did this swap and replaced the wedges, how did you deal with the 1/4" difference in tube diameters (assuming your wedges were a one size fits all)?

I did not replace the wedges. The axle assemblies are identical, with regard to the fit of the radius arms, c-caps and bushings. Literally, unbolt one, bolt in the other.

 

[Timmy390]

I went with Energy brand (black) from JBG as they have graphite in them and are self lubing. Discussed in this thread http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209565&highlight=black+bushings

I used LOTS of 70 soap/30 water solution in a spray bottle when putting everything back together and my bushings didn't squeese out. I have a fat 16th to 1/8 gap on each side.

You shouldn't need to fab up anything as in spacers or slot the spring cup holes.

Tim

 

[01Dudley]

Yeah we offer a spacer kit for a Dana 60 conversion so you don't have to grind the wedges, but it's closer to .50 thick. You could could easily massage the back of the wedge before welding them on and based off your picture it doesn't look like they would need much. Please remember every application is alittle different and yes I know I did tell you to fill the space between the wedge and the axle. Based off the picture you sent me if you grind the wedge down to fit the shape of the axle I bet you will have ground to much off. Is this a HD44? Some of those have larger axle tubes like a 60 does, but I believe those are closer to 3" rather than 2.75" that you have measured. The guys here are correct all "C" caps are the same, wedges are wedges and you should have to use a impact. Becareful I just had a customer who had to purchase another set of head units because he got the bolts started croaked and then impacted them together. Stripped 3 of the 4 holes on one and 2 of the 4 holes on the other.

 

[jduffent]

The only thing I have to add would be to make sure you have the little injection nipples trimmed out of the inside of the bushings. That will make it to where the bushing will not seat down completely.

Suzy

 

[NM_outdoors]

Yeah we offer a spacer kit for a Dana 60 conversion so you don't have to grind the wedges, but it's closer to .50 thick. You could could easily massage the back of the wedge before welding them on and based off your picture it doesn't look like they would need much. Please remember every application is alittle different and yes I know I did tell you to fill the space between the wedge and the axle. Based off the picture you sent me if you grind the wedge down to fit the shape of the axle I bet you will have ground to much off. Is this a HD44? Some of those have larger axle tubes like a 60 does, but I believe those are closer to 3" rather than 2.75" that you have measured. The guys here are correct all "C" caps are the same, wedges are wedges and you should have to use a impact. Becareful I just had a customer who had to purchase another set of head units because he got the bolts started croaked and then impacted them together. Stripped 3 of the 4 holes on one and 2 of the 4 holes on the other.

This is a stock axle off of a '76 bronco. I get the concern from several of you for using an impact. What I did there was to start with longer bolts, starting with and keeping a full thread-diameter of engagement as I worked toward shorter bolts. All the while maintaining as even of a gap as possible by not going too far with any one of the bolts at a time. It went pretty well until everything bottomed out and the bushings started to squish out!!

So if c-caps are c-caps, wedges are wedges, and bushings are bushings, then the only variable here is axle tube diameters. Knowing that, the solution will be to take the wedges' radius 1/8" closer to the wedge tips on each for a total of 1/4". While I'm at it, might as well correct it's size to 1.38=(2.75/2).

Maybe an angle grinder would be ok and I could creep up on it knowing what the tip to tip distance on my D30 is....

I realize the majority of the wedge work out there is D60 (which is what these wedges are obviously intended for), but it sure woulda been nice to know that before I ordered them.

The spacer option is still on the table since Duff is suggesting that here (but for a D60 which would likely see more abuse than my D44!). I see that 70_steve is STRONGLY discouraging that though.... Any particular reason? Most likely a safety concern?

 

[NM_outdoors]

The only thing I have to add would be to make sure you have the little injection nipples trimmed out of the inside of the bushings. That will make it to where the bushing will not seat down completely.

Suzy

Yep, already drilled them out. Thought (hoped!) that was my problem initially..;D

 

[70_Steve]

Maybe an angle grinder would be ok and I could creep up on it knowing what the tip to tip distance on my D30 is....
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The spacer option is still on the table since Duff is suggesting that here (but for a D60 which would likely see more abuse than my D44!). I see that 70_steve is STRONGLY discouraging that though.... Any particular reason? Most likely a safety concern?

I think I'd be safe in saying that 99% of the people here do not need, or do not run a spacer. Yes, absolutely about safety! The radius arms and c-caps never had a spacer, so if you use one, that means the front end is put together incorrectly.

I'm dissapointed that neither of the two representatives of James Duff would say who makes their c-bushings. Although lots of people use Prothane c-bushings and say they've never had a problem, even though they're squished out and distorted, it's way too obvious they simply do not fit correctly, and look just like yours do at that point of tightening up the c-caps.

I believe you're thinking in the right direction when you talk about making the wedges fit the Dana 44 with the dimensions that are the same as the Dana 30.

 

[NM_outdoors]

I'm dissapointed that neither of the two representatives of James Duff would say who makes their c-bushings. Although lots of people use Prothane c-bushings and say they've never had a problem, even though they're squished out and distorted, it's way too obvious they simply do not fit correctly, and look just like yours do at that point of tightening up the c-caps.

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In defense off the Duff folks, at this point the problem IS NOT the bushings. They're squeezing out because the overall stack of less forgiving (metal) parts is toooooo long. Something had to give when I was laying the pipe to it and the bushings said "DOH!?!?"....... Hopefully I stopped in time and they're salvageable!

 

[jduffent]

FWIW, we DO have our own bushings made. Injection molded, same manufacturer for about 30 years now. 7* we sell Daystar and are very happy with them as well. But agreed the bushings aren't the problem. The wedges are an identical copy of a 44 Wedge! For people putting them on a D60, we recommend the spacer instead of the major grinding it would take to get them to fit the larger 60 housing. You might need to knock just the edges off the wedges to get them to lay down a little closer to the axle.

Suzy

 

[NM_outdoors]

FWIW, we DO have our own bushings made. Injection molded, same manufacturer for about 30 years now. 7* we sell Daystar and are very happy with them as well. But agreed the bushings aren't the problem. The wedges are an identical copy of a 44 Wedge! For people putting them on a D60, we recommend the spacer instead of the major grinding it would take to get them to fit the larger 60 housing. You might need to knock just the edges off the wedges to get them to lay down a little closer to the axle.

Suzy

Hmmm... I stand corrected then since I was saying they were obviously intended for a D60! Sure seems like the wedge's radius would fit a larger tube much better though....

Either way, out comes the angle grinder tonight.....

 

[NM_outdoors]

Took the grinder to the wedges. Got 'em to fit up better and tightened the caps till they kissed the arms. Bushings still squeezed out some but I'm good with the result. Now to install some HD axle shafts and add some disk brakes to this old dude!

 

[Timmy390]

Bushings still squeezed out some but I'm good with the result.

Glad you got it. Use soap and water (lots of) when putting those bushing in and it will help the squeeze out.....

Tim

 

[01Dudley]

Good deal!

Took the grinder to the wedges. Got 'em to fit up better and tightened the caps till they kissed the arms. Bushings still squeezed out some but I'm good with the result. Now to install some HD axle shafts and add some disk brakes to this old dude!