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how much is too much steering angle?

Biohazard

Full Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
286
Loc.
Central Arkansas
I just installed WH track bar riser, running one ton TRO linkage with 5.5" lift, with F150 knuckles and brakes. To keep the track bar and drag link parallel I had to use the second hole on the riser. I'm starting to think my drag link angle is a bit too much. I haven't driven it down the road yet, so I can't say if it does anything weird, but I would like some opinions.
4ad85fe4954357e464a82307ba4aef10.jpg
 

DirtDonk

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Bronco Guru
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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,919
I don't have any hard and fast measurements. That detail does not come up often, because it becomes obvious mainly when the Bronco is scary to drive down the road and things need to be lowered.

But just by looking at your pic, I'd say THAT right there IS the very definition of too much angle.

You get to get creative with that much lift.
The F150 steering arms are slightly lower to begin with, then you lifted high. You did make a big difference with TRO, but with that much angle on the dangle, I'd say you're in need of a pitman arm and matching trackbar mods.

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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Is that an adjustable trackbar? If so, great. But if not, you should get one to allow the axle to back to center since risers and drops are not typically optimized for 5.5" lifts.

Great job on the parallel bit. Just still a bit steep overall.

Paul
 

Whoaa

Bronco Guru
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
1,059
I also have a 5 1/2" lift and have been working on this issue for some time.

BTW, is the engine in this bronco? It doesn't look like much weight on the coil springs and this makes it appear to be a steeper angle than it will be once the engine weight is on it.

Initially I used the original Y tie rod system on my 77', then changed that out to a "converted" T tie-rod offered by WH. The converted T is the one in these pic's. However now I'm changing again to a different tie rod set, made by ruff stuff, that is very similar to yours.
The reason I'm changing to a similar set up to your 1 ton style is to push the contact intersect point of the drag link to tie-rod further outboard and closer to the Pass side knuckle for better parallel alignment. Another reason I wanted to shallow this angle by pushing the intersect point outward is because I don't wanna use a drop pitman arm...the drop pitman arm is a whole nother issue for a different time.
Plus w/ the use of big tires, that are really heavy, this offers more leverage for the steering gear (steering box) which means less work for the power steering pump and system.

I really like the parallel alignment of your trac bar and drag link, you get a "A" for this! And I'm not necessarily concerned about the [appearance] of the *step* angle. The step angle in itself will not cause ill handling or poor driving characteristic's. That said, the steep angle of the trac bar and drag can and often times is one part of a complex issue.

However, I want to emphasis and explain at least one critical point:

Generally speaking the design of the early Bronco front-end sucks, and it sucks worse when lifted. The reason is directly related to the scissor effect of the trac bar being hinged & pinned to the front diff housing on one side, and being hinged & pinned to the solid frame of the Bronco on the other end. Everytime the suspension loads and unloads, such as hitting a dip in the road or a hole, the front end is violently thrown sideways because of this scissor effect. Of course having the front-end thrown sideways, everytime the suspension cycles upsets the vehicle.
And that lady's and gent's is the *short version* of the very reason this crappy design didn't last long in the automotive industry.

Ok, back on point....trying not to get too long winded. This is a whole can of worms and a very complex issue.

I'm mostly concerned about your Caster. There is a HUGE difference between a 3" suspension lift and a 5 1/2" suspension lift. I have been learning this the hard way, LOL. It easy to use some shims under the leaf springs to correct the bum rear pinion angle created by this lift. And almost as easy to weld on some new leaf spring perch's.

However making the proper corrections to the front end is much more difficult and much more involved. I have yet to see a truly "good driving" Bronco with 5 1/2" of lift that didn't have major work to the front end, and this mainly bases around the Caster numbers. There is not a C bushing in the world that can correct this problem and to my knowledge there is a not a radius arm factory produced that can correct this problem.

The two angles that are fighting each other on the front end is the pinion angle and the Caster. You can have one, or the other good, but not both on a stock Dana 44 Bronco housing. When you have *postive Caster numbers this rakes the knuckles *forward and this is the root problem of poor driveability.

Think of riding a bicycle, when the forks are raked forward (negative Caster) you can steer easily and sometimes take your hands off of the handle bars the bike will pretty much go straight forward. Now turn the handle bars around so the forks are raked back (positive Caster), it takes a LOT of steering input with the handle bars to just to keep going and often times your unstable. This exact same principal applies to an early Bronco front end and the Positive or Negative Caster of the knuckles. When you lift a Bronco 5 1/2" the Caster it bad...I mean really BAD! Its so bad that you can't hardly drive the machine with any confidence.

And because the two angle that are fighting each other are the pinion angle and the bum Caster angle, the only real and best solution to fix this issue is known as cut-and-turn of the [inner] outter C structures. You have to cut the C's off the housing, rotate them about 10 degree's and then weld them back on.

In a perfect world you're looking for about 5 to 7 degree of Caster.

So this is the long version of your driveability question. Your Bronco is going to drive like crap in the current configuration. And the main reason is not because of the [step] angle of the trac bar and drag link, its because the Caster is so screwed up. Here's a neat vid that explains the cut-n-turn process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHg3s_QZ5P4

Here is my current work in progress that I'm trying to fix as outlined above, and moving the tie rod to the top of the knuckles really helps...as you have already done.



 
OP
OP
Biohazard

Biohazard

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Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
286
Loc.
Central Arkansas
I'm well aware of the caster/ pinion angle issue. The engine is installed. I'm currently running long radius arms with caster built into them and 2* bushings. I'm not certain what the reading is yet but it should be close for now. I've still got a ways to go before this rig is road worthy. Guess I'll have to step back and rethink a few things.
 

Boss Hugg

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Jun 8, 2010
Messages
2,159
I'm sure you know that optimum angle for both bars is parallel to the ground. This minimizes the travel on bumps. At that angle, there's going to be significant travel. Tho you shouldn't have any significant bump steer, I think you'll find lots of body roll caused by bumps in the road. I'd look into a drop pitman (I thought I read that you had one) and then find one of those kits to brace the steering box off the bottom of the output shaft. I'll try to get a pic of what my dad did that works awesome.
 

navalbronco66

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Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
270
I just installed WH track bar riser, running one ton TRO linkage with 5.5" lift, with F150 knuckles and brakes. To keep the track bar and drag link parallel I had to use the second hole on the riser. I'm starting to think my drag link angle is a bit too much. I haven't driven it down the road yet, so I can't say if it does anything weird, but I would like some opinions.
4ad85fe4954357e464a82307ba4aef10.jpg

Where did you get that steering kit with the GM 1 tons..looks great, you get another A for that.
 

C Saporito

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Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
259
I had a similar setup, parallel track bar and draglink but at a high angle. The bump steer wasn't bad, but because of all the suspension travel with a 5.5" lift and plenty of torque, hitting the throttle aggressively would cause the truck to dart to the left then back to the right after backing off. After adding a dropped pitman arm and track bar bracket the truck steers great, no more darting. I also have TRO and track bar riser.
 
OP
OP
Biohazard

Biohazard

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Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
286
Loc.
Central Arkansas
Where did you get that steering kit with the GM 1 tons..looks great, you get another A for that.

navalbronco I actually built the steering. Picked up the threaded bungs off ebay, scrounged up the tie rod ends by part number, and snagged some stainless .250 wall tubing from work. Welded it all up and it should be plenty stout. Kinda wish I went ahead and spent the money for stainless wire and a bottle of argon, but I think it'll be ok. I have about $100 total in it. Unfortunately I'll probably have to shorten the drag link again after correcting the angle.............
 
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OP
OP
Biohazard

Biohazard

Full Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
286
Loc.
Central Arkansas
I'm sure you know that optimum angle for both bars is parallel to the ground. This minimizes the travel on bumps. At that angle, there's going to be significant travel. Tho you shouldn't have any significant bump steer, I think you'll find lots of body roll caused by bumps in the road. I'd look into a drop pitman (I thought I read that you had one) and then find one of those kits to brace the steering box off the bottom of the output shaft. I'll try to get a pic of what my dad did that works awesome.

Yeah I remember looking at his setup in hot springs. I thought it was well thought out. I'll probably go ahead and order a pitman arm and then see where I'm at on track bar angle. I'll have to go ahead and move the lower mount to the top hole and maybe it will be close enough to not cause a bunch of issues. Doubtful, but maybe..............

If I do end up having to use a drop bracket for the track bar, I'll probably do like he did and brace it to the other frame rail to relieve the stress.
 
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