Is there a way to verify an engine is the original in an EB

[darcytribe]

Prepping my EB for sale and was wondering if there is a way to verify that the engine in it is the original one? Thanks!

 

[jmangi62]

You have to do some research. I took the block numbers and came back as a mustang block. Ford took leftover mustang blocks and stuck them in broncos. A common thing back in the day.

 

[jamesroney]

Prepping my EB for sale and was wondering if there is a way to verify that the engine in it is the original one? Thanks!

No. But you can certainly verify that an engine is NOT the original one.

There is nothing unique about the engine in a Bronco. But if you tell me what we are working on...I can tell you if the block is not original.
Need to know year, engine type, block casting number and date code to start with.

There will be people who claim that you cannot have "numbers matching" on an Bronco. But you can certainly have numbers that do not match. So there's a logic flaw there.

@jmangi62

You have to do some research. I took the block numbers and came back as a mustang block. Ford took leftover mustang blocks and stuck them in broncos. A common thing back in the day.

This is a little bit confusing, and I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Let me assure you that Ford did not take leftover engines and put them in Broncos. Never happened. Not once. I don't even know what a "leftover mustang" block means? The C5AE-6015-E 289 blocks were used in the entire fleet, including Broncos, Mustangs, Fairlanes, Falcons, Galaxies, Mercurys. The only "Mustang" block might be the 4 bolt main Boss 302 blocks from 69-71 C9ZE, D0ZE, and D1ZE. If you had one of those in your Bronco, that would be awesome. But not from the factory.

 

[darcytribe]

Thanks James. The year is 1972 (built 10/29/71), 302-2V engine. Where would I find the block casting number and date code?

 

[Speedrdr]

It’s in almost as an inconvenient place as the VIN on the frame. Lol. Look underneath the engine in the area of the starter and may be covered by a layer of oil/grease one dirt.

 

[darcytribe]

Thanks! I'll see if I can locate it.

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks James. The year is 1972 (built 10/29/71), 302-2V engine. Where would I find the block casting number and date code?

Looking for a number that looks like this. It is between the starter and the block. Notice the location of the freeze plug, and the pan rail.

The date code is about 1/4 inch tall, and the casting number is about 1/2 inch tall. It will be hard to read, but you can put your phone camera up there and get a good pic / video.

Once you find the casting number, and date code, the next ID is the assembly stamps on the driver's side block deck near the timing cover.
There is also an engine tag with the build configuration info on a bolt near the coil. (about 3/4 inch x 2 inch)

Bear in mind that the engine casting number is a bare cylinder Block ID number, and not an assembled engine number.

People will call the casting number an "engineering number" and that's fine. All numbers are engineering numbers. The casting number is actually a part number, but it is not available for sale. (ordering or inventory.) In MRP parlance, we would call it a "non-nettable" part number. In order for a customer to actually buy it, or a parts department to order it...it has to be nettable, and all of the cost, supply chain, unit of measure, and other engineering attributes must exist in ERP. So Ford engineering will create a new part number when it is made available as a service part. This causes great confusion to the enthusiast, because drawings and Bills of Material will call part numbers that are not part numbers. So the hobby has adopted the language of engineering numbers, and created a distinction between a part number and an engineering number. It's just for convenience, and it's way too late to try to fight it. (and no one cares, unless you are building an engineering collaboration tool and trying to sync to a data warehouse thru a third party database manager.)

 

[darcytribe]

Thanks for that exact location James, I should be able to find that now. I'll let you know.

 

[Broncobowsher]

As noted, no numbers matching. Cast dates do not reflect machined or build dates. May not even reflect the actual date made.

 

[bmbm]

Thanks for that exact location James, I should be able to find that now. I'll let you know.

Check the casting code on the heads also. Ford casting codes that start with a C were from the 1960s and a D would be for 1970s. And the first letter after the C could be a 6 so that block or head was designed in 1966. Hope I have that right you can find the charts online. It is somewhat common to find heads and block with casting codes from different years because the vehicles are old. My first Bronco 1966 (170) had a block from a 1968 and head from 1970s. I guess numbers matching could mean on block/head?

 

[Broncobowsher]

A common thing back in the day was a head exchange. When you needed a valve job the machine shops would have rebuilt sets on the shelf. You take your cores in, swap them out with a set already done. Casting numbers be damned. Nobody cared about matching numbers, they just wanted an engine that runs again.

 

[jamesroney]

Check the casting code on the heads also. Ford casting codes that start with a C were from the 1960s and a D would be for 1970s. And the first letter after the C could be a 6 so that block or head was designed in 1966. Hope I have that right you can find the charts online. It is somewhat common to find heads and block with casting codes from different years because the vehicles are old. My first Bronco 1966 (170) had a block from a 1968 and head from 1970s. I guess numbers matching could mean on block/head?

Ford 302 casting codes are on the bottom of the head. You need to pull the head to read it. The date codes are only visible with the valve cover removed.

6 cyl cylinder head casting codes are visible, as you noted.

In Bronco terms, the only thing that "matters" is the engine block. Because the meaning of numbers matching is quite different for a Corvette, or a Harley-Davidson, or a Ferrari. Numbers matching can only be applied to the extent that any numbers exist.

This is why there is always great confusion about whether a Bronco can be number matching or not. You can already see the disconnect between me and @Broncobowsher.

He says Bronco's are "no numbers matching" and from a serial number perspective, he is correct.
But I say Broncos are "numbers matching" because from a casting number perspective, I am correct.
For some cars, "numbers matching" means that the unique identifier must be correlated in a documented database. Many motorcycles, race cars, exotics and imports have different serial numbers for the chassis and engine, but can be numbers matching if the numbers are correct per the documentation. This is the case where numbers that don't match can "match."

There are also cases where numbers that do match STILL need additional details in order to prove provenance. If you have a factory Street Hemi in your Mopar, the numbers only match IF there is underlying flycut milled boss with a particular radius in the parent metal beneath the stamp. (because many people counterfeit those blocks.)

So the point of this diatribe is to point out that numbers matching MUST be considered in context. The only time that isn't true is when you have the full VIN indelibly marked on the body, chassis, and engine. But the focus of this thread was to demonstrate provenance to enhance market value on a 72 Bronco 302. In my opinion, the relevant and verifiable attributes of provenance are:
a. engine block casting.
b. engine assembly stamp code.
c. intake manifold part number and date.
d. distributor part number and date.
e. carburetor part number, date, and tag.
f. cylinder head configuration, part number and date.
g. engine calibration tag.
h. exhaust manifold date codes.
i. emissions control equipment and air cleaner as noted by DSO.
j. water pump, fan, and pulley notation.
k. Dipstick notations.
l. Alternator part number.
m. period correct valve covers.
n. Fuel pump stamp codes.

a+b alone are sufficient to claim "numbers matching engine"

 

[BajaBronco]

This is great.

 

[darcytribe]

Looking for a number that looks like this. It is between the starter and the block. Notice the location of the freeze plug, and the pan rail.

The date code is about 1/4 inch tall, and the casting number is about 1/2 inch tall. It will be hard to read, but you can put your phone camera up there and get a good pic / video.

Once you find the casting number, and date code, the next ID is the assembly stamps on the driver's side block deck near the timing cover.
There is also an engine tag with the build configuration info on a bolt near the coil. (about 3/4 inch x 2 inch)

Bear in mind that the engine casting number is a bare cylinder Block ID number, and not an assembled engine number.

People will call the casting number an "engineering number" and that's fine. All numbers are engineering numbers. The casting number is actually a part number, but it is not available for sale. (ordering or inventory.) In MRP parlance, we would call it a "non-nettable" part number. In order for a customer to actually buy it, or a parts department to order it...it has to be nettable, and all of the cost, supply chain, unit of measure, and other engineering attributes must exist in ERP. So Ford engineering will create a new part number when it is made available as a service part. This causes great confusion to the enthusiast, because drawings and Bills of Material will call part numbers that are not part numbers. So the hobby has adopted the language of engineering numbers, and created a distinction between a part number and an engineering number. It's just for convenience, and it's way too late to try to fight it. (and no one cares, unless you are building an engineering collaboration tool and trying to sync to a data warehouse thru a third party database manager.)

Hey James, I was finally able to get under there and snap some pics. Any thoughts on this with my 72? https://flic.kr/p/2s3yR6W https://flic.kr/p/2s3ziHe

 

[admin]

So Ford treated Bronco and Mustang engines differently? My 1968 Mustang has it's original 289-2V engine and C4 transmission. Both have the VIN stamped on them. So for Mustangs at least, there is such a thing as a "numbers matching" car.

I know my '72 Bronco has a junk yard replacement block from a previous owner, so I've never bothered to ask if Bronco blocks were stamped with VINs.

Photo below shows the VIN stamps on my Mustang engine & transmission.

 

[jamesroney]

Hey James, I was finally able to get under there and snap some pics. Any thoughts on this with my 72? https://flic.kr/p/2s3yR6W https://flic.kr/p/2s3ziHe

So on September 22, of 1971...that engine block was poured in the Foundry. There will be a couple of numbers stamped on the left front cylinder block deck that tells you when the crank was installed.

One month later, on October 29, 1971...your 1972 Ford Bronco rolled off the assembly line.

I say that engine left the factory in that Bronco. No one can prove otherwise.

 

[jamesroney]

So Ford treated Bronco and Mustang engines differently? My 1968 Mustang has it's original 289-2V engine and C4 transmission. Both have the VIN stamped on them. So for Mustangs at least, there is such a thing as a "numbers matching" car.

I know my '72 Bronco has a junk yard replacement block from a previous owner, so I've never bothered to ask if Bronco blocks were stamped with VINs.

Photo below shows the VIN stamps on my Mustang engine & transmission.

That tracks. The FMVSS for unique identifier on major components began in 1968 for Passenger cars.

(You will find them on High Performance cars earlier than that.)

Now why a Station Wagon that was produced in a truck factory would be exempt from that is beyond me. It's going to be something silly...like at least 2 "major" components, and they will make a distinction for body on frame vs unit-body. I know for sure that my 69 U15 block is not stamped. But my 68 Mustang 289-C code was stamped. I do know it was effective 1-JAN-68. But it's really hard to find legacy copies of old standards. Once they get amended or revised, the old stuff disappears forever. I'll need to find someone with a hard-copy of the standard from 1967.

 

[darcytribe]

Thanks James! I assumed it was, based on the provenance, but it’s great to have stamped evidence... Appreciate you sharing from your knowledge of the topic!

 

[darcytribe]

Thanks really to everyone who helped on this thread! Great community here!!!

 

[bmc69]

That tracks. The FMVSS for unique identifier on major components began in 1968 for Passenger cars.

That's a useful bit of info...I wondered why some 400 blocks that have come through my shop had partial VINs stamped on back top of the block but never one out of a truck...