More efficient starting method than solenoid?

[duffymahoney]

A Bosch/Tyco/ISO cube relay rated for 30A can't operate a starter that draws a nominal 140A. Post pics showing the relay you're using & how exactly it's wired in.

Good to know, but it's still a flawed design because tightening the main lugs causes the internal contacts to mis-align.

From my original post. I installed the bosch 1996 explorer mini starter and a 2006 mustang mini relay starter setup. It works so much easier and I like the look better. Works fine like this, starts easier honestly. They make large relays. A quick google I found 75amp.

 

[DirtDonk]

So it sounds like you’re taking the load off of the ignition switch, by using a standard relay to trigger the solenoid on the mini starter?

 

[bmc69]

The Cole-Hersee 24059-bx is in fact a GREAT relay. But beware, the small terminals do not do what you think they do. There is no "I" terminal, as the terminals are isolated, and one needs to be grounded to energize the solenoid coil.

yeppers..I keep those (or the Standard Ignition/Bluestreak equivalent) in stock at the shop; the watermen here use them on their 12V crab pot winders. They hold up really well to the large amp loads as well as the nasty salt-spray environment they live in.

That aside, I only use NOS starter relays on my vehicles....either Ford or Standard Ignition. They still show up on eBay all the time.

 

[John_parkeriv]

This Ford starter never had a problem with relay failure .

View attachment 934913

Hell, if I could figure it out; I'd use one

 

[John_parkeriv]

Hummmm something odd is going on. Something is killing your solenoids and I don't think it's the sitting outside.

Mine has been on the truck for many many years now and it's never inside. THINK it was a duralast "gold". I know I bought it local for sure.

Have you taken a "dead" one apart and looked to see what the issue was? It's just a big relay........should be able to see if the contacts are burned or what-not.....

Tim

Not sure it's just my bronco, my mustang AND F250 have the exact same problem. 3 months, then *click*

 

[John_parkeriv]

To get this derailed train back on the tracks,

View attachment 934925
The original Ford starter relay is pretty robust, and my Bronco has sat outside for decades with no starter relay issues.

The new style 4 terminal relay may be more reliable?
ACDELCO F3914
View attachment 934928

That 4 pins the one I've got. They aren't worth the plastic they're made with

 

[John_parkeriv]

You can still get a motorcraft relay from ford or other suppliers that sell them,, the relay in pic the mounting bracket has part #D2AF-11450-AA , thought was interesting. The box and part # pictured .. FWIW the other newer style relay I have seen quite a few of them bad as well, better or worse IDK,

I work AT Ford, so I'll definitely look into getting one of the factory units

 

[John_parkeriv]

I switched to a bosch style relay a few years ago. It has worked flawlessly since. If you google it for a 5.0, it will come up.

Looks like this kind?

 

[John_parkeriv]

your '66 a V8, or I-6? If it's in the original location, on the inner wheel well panel, facing the exhaust manifold on a V8, then the first thing I would do while replacing this latest one would be to relocate it to the front panel of the wheel well. Just a few inches from it's current home, like Ford did it after about '68 or so.

Started as an I6, but is 351w now. It's on the front of the fender near the battery tray.

What brands and model numbers of relay are you buying?

Motorcraft most of the time

Are the ones you're using also replacements? Or are they originals that you're robbing off of older rigs? Reason I ask is that many of the replacements for the past 20 years or more, have been a total crap shoot.

Bit of a mix. My mustangs from 93 was OEM, my trucks was aftermarket

Just to clear this up, the device mounted to the body IS a relay. It's not a solenoid and was never called out as such by Ford in any of their manuals. However, over the years the aftermarket and even Motorcraft have gotten used to people calling them out as a solenoid, so sometimes you even see that printed on the box labels. Along with one or two other words like "switch" and "contactor" and even "contacteur" (for Citroens maybe? ) and such.
But it's a relay nonetheless...

Nice little nugget to learn, thanks for that

And though I'm sure you've probably checked into things, just what are they doing when they fail? Simply no more clicking even with a good battery? When you find out one is bad, are you also checking for voltage on the small Red w/blue wire and it's 90 degree connector? Those are notorious too, for getting old and loose. Maybe when you have one fail, it's not helping that the fitting is loose. Then when you mess with it by putting in a new relay, you're making them have better contact and they work for awhile. Until the connection gets loose again.
Might not be your issue, but at this stage it's certainly worth looking into. Since not too many people have your issue with sitting outside causing the trouble. It's almost always the cheap replacement parts that cause repeated failures.
The lifetime warranties on some of the cheaper ones seem like a good thing. But you end up using the warranty WAY more than you'd like!

Typically when they go, I check internal resistance across both points and try to jump it. If it'll start with everything attached, but needs jumped; the internals are likely shot (but I do still check).

I do check that my wires and battery are still good / tight before just chucking a relay in it.

 

[Oldtimer]

Looks like this kind?

This type does not come with a high enough amperage to support a starter current load.

 

[904Bronco]

Random thought... What about going to the Wreaking yard and pulling a Ford starter Relay from a donor vehicle. Done that with my Explorer builds, without issue and I usually grab a few spares...

 

[DirtDonk]

Hmm, the word “rust“ keeps coming up in my mind.
Does your starter relay have a good clean connection to the body at all times? And when you’re testing it for resistance when they go bad, are you grounding the mounting bracket ears to the circuit during this test?

And while we’re on the subject of grounds… Have you updated and cleaned yours? All of them?
Especially to the body? Have you added an engine to body ground at any point?
You might even consider adding a small length of wire from the battery negative right to one of the mounting bolts for the starter relay. They’re so close that it doesn’t have to be very long, or very big.
I usually use 10 gauge, but it could probably be as little as 14, or even 16 gauge and get the job done in the long term.

 

[DirtDonk]

And don’t forget to make sure that the red with blue wire has a good clean and tight connection.

 

[73azbronco]

but bigger body

 

[duffymahoney]

This type does not come with a high enough amperage to support a starter current load.

Yeah, it looks like the explorer starter has an actual solenoid on itself, small relay triggers it. Very clean and easy setup. I highly recommend.

 

[duffymahoney]

So it sounds like you’re taking the load off of the ignition switch, by using a standard relay to trigger the solenoid on the mini starter?

I believe that is it. My memory sucks though

 

[DirtDonk]

It’s probably the case.
As mentioned, the small relays can’t trigger a regular starter directly. Would probably just melt at some point.
But on the opposite side of that coin, the stock ignition switches have proven to be not quite up to the task of triggering a starter mounted solenoid directly either.
Plus, the occasional feedback issues means that most of us with modern starters run them while retaining the old fender mounted starter relay to take the load off the ignition switch.
Not to mention remaining as a convenient electrical distribution location.

A standard 40 amp, or maybe even a 30 amp cube relay could handle that duty most likely.
But you still lose the distribution block aspect, so would either have to add one, or do what GM did back in the day and put all your power distribution wires on the starter.
Which proved many times over to be a very bad idea in the long run.

 

[Steve83]

The starter motor relays from Ford are intermittent duty, and they are horrid if you energize them for too long of a duration. This is part of the reason why they fail so often in Winch service.

Right - any time you use a part wrong, it's liable to fail quickly. That's why winch mfrs. don't put starter relays on their winches, and 18-wheelers don't use wheelbarrow tires.

Get a starter from a 1996 Bronco with a 5.0 and a 5 speed. It will have the solenoid relay integrated into the starter motor.

That's a starter solenoid - not a starter relay. And even though the solenoid draws less current than the starter motor, it still draws too much for the ignition switch, which is why a starter relay is still required. If you're going to use that style of starter, you should use the matching circuit.

(click this text)

...a 2006 mustang mini relay...

That's not operating the ~140A starter; it's operating the ~20A solenoid on the starter. The solenoid's switch is operating the starter.

...I found 75amp.

That won't operate a 140A starter, either. And those over-rated relays don't last long at their rated current, either.

 

[ntsqd]

I scanned ,but haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but something that I consistently see not mentioned about the old type of starter relay is that they can be opened up and reconditioned. I've like done 30 or 40 of them over the years. It's not complicated. Drill out the 4 corner rivets and clamp the bottom plate in place before you drill the last rivet as the spring in there will send it flying.

With it opened up you have the two stationary contacts and the moving contact. Odds are good that one or all three are a bit eroded from arcing. Usually the stationary contacts can be removed from the solenoid body by removing the second nut. Some designs allow these to be flipped over, and re-installed. Some do not. Either flip them over to get a new contact surface or carefully clean up the contact area with a mill file. The moving contact can sometimes be flipped as well, but most can't be. Same thing, clean it up with a file.
De-grease every thing, clean any copper dust out of the inside, and reassemble. We use short machine screws and nylox to replace the rivets.

If you really want an over the top solenoid/relay with almost the same size and shape then have a look at these:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/9012/Solenoid_L-Series_-_250A_12_24V

Note that the 250A rating is continuous, the 30 second rating is 1000A. They are hermetically sealed contactors, and most of them in that family of contactors are rated for a minimum of 10,000 cycles (some are more).
As was mentioned above, these too have no 'I' terminal on them. Running a "Sugar Cube" relay in parallel would be how I would address this issue.

 

[Steve83]

Old style starter relay:

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New style:

(click this text)