New Engine New EFI. Car starts well but dies immediately with starter off.

[T-7ToNewOldB]

New 347 with Pro-Flo 4. Basically everything is new. Turn ignition and engine fires up smoothly and immediately. However, when I release the starter it dies immediately. No sputtering just off. If I had the starter on it keeps running very smoothly. So something electrical in the ignition system. Set cylinder 1 to 12 degrees BTDC. Confirmed on compression stroke and lined up with measurement on harmonic balancer. Installed distributor per supplemental instructions. (Did this three times so pretty confident.). The estreet software is set up correctly for my 347. (Early bronco) so uses the firing order for a 302HO/351. Fires right up and runs smoothly but the second I stop cranking it dies. I assume this is something to do with the coil. I has power with the ignition in on only so that wiring appears to be correct. Tried a jumper from the batter to the + terminal. Didn’t help. I have a MSD 8202 Blaster 2 Hi-Performance Coil.

Tried a jumper directly from the battery to the positive terminal o the coil. Didn’t help.

Thoughts?

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Not a coincidence. Key off fast engine off immediately. Key on longer engine runs smoothly and well (fuel pressure good revs well) but the second I turn the starter off it dies like I turned it off completely.

 

[ared77]

With a wire from +12 to the pos. side of coil, it should have kept running - no matter what, I'd think. Unless the coil is losing it's ground somehow when you release the key to "run" position.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

You may be on to something. I have a PMGR starter so a relay on it in addition to the standard starter relay. I have power connected directly to the starter and run the starter relay to the power out on the ign relay. So I disconnected the relay to relay connection. When I do this and test continuity the - terminal on the coil shows no connection to ground with ignition in the ON position. It does show connection to ground with the ignition in start position. So I think losing ground is where I will look for now.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

I have the painless harness. Trying to figure out what ground may be not working correctly. Not clear, to me, from the diagrams. Will keep digging.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

The engine is very well grounded. Running 4AWG from the bell housing directly to the battery. Same size from starter to bell housing. Tinned strap from bell housing to the frame.

 

[BUCKWILD]

Sounds like the ECM is getting power from the starter side of the ignition switch, as mentioned earlier i would look at powering the ecm and ignition from the battery and start it to see if that corrects it and them if so finding your problem. The ignition switch has 3 sides acc, on and start

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Will continue to debug tomorrow. The Proflo brain is directly wired to the battery. It turns on when it receives power when the ignition is in any position other than off. Pinging eddlebrock on this

 

[73azbronco]

with the ignition switch in run or on but not running or cranked, is the ecm powered? Is it grounded?

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Yes. It is powered and grounded. The pro-flo, positive and negative, are wired to buss bars directly connected to the battery. Plus I can connect to the ECU when the key is in the ON position.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

The pro-flo 4 has a pink/black wire that is supposed to be connected to a power source that is on only when the ignition is on AND cranking. I had it on the output of the starter relay. To test I moved it to the coil wire on the relay. Started fast, ran well but wouldn’t turn off. Even when I disconnected the main negative terminal on the battery. Had to disconnect the coil. The positive terminal on the battery is in a tight space so I don’t like to disconnect it when the negative post is connected to the engine.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Figured it out. Bad wording, and interpretation, from Pro-flo instructions. They say this wire needs power when “on AND cranking”. Their emphasis. So I put it in a location that only gets power with ignition on and cranking. Output of starter solenoid. They mean it has uninterrupted power whether on or cranking and doesn’t suffer from voltage drop. Also you can’t have it on the coil as it has backfeed which keeps the car running even with the key off.

 

[TDBjork]

so i read that this is a lot of issues for people keeping power on the pink and black wire while on and starting. what are people doing to fix this... are they running a hot wire to a physical switch the manually turn on and off to turn the bronco on or is there a wire on the key switch that would work for this. im in the same boat but have not tried firing it up yet. guy at edlebrock told me to run a manual switch to get it running and once you know it works play around with what might work for my system.. not to sure i like the sounds of that.

 

[DirtDonk]

I may be misreading what you're saying NewOldB, but the output of the starter relay is most definitely NOT hot in start AND crank. It's hot in START only.
Sounds like the Pink wire was losing 12v as soon as the key was released to ON and so was no longer getting it's signal.

From a single source, the ONLY two wires on a stock Bronco ignition switch that have power in both positions are the original Green w/red and the Red w/green wires. They are on the same single terminal of the ignition switch.
There are other ways to get this of course, but from the key that is the only one.

With a Painless harness there are others I think, but I don't remember that or not. Eric at Painless is a member here and can answer that.
You can also get the START signal from the S or the I posts of the older style relay.

And I have a question about the second relay T-7. Why the ignition relay in the first place?

Thanks.

Paul

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Dirt Donk,

The problem was my interpretation. I interpreted the AND to mean both conditions at the same time, not separately. Goofy but its what I did.

Changed it and works great. The 347 sounds SWEET!! Blueprint built a nice engine on this one, the BC Bronco exhaust gets some credit there of course.

Why two relays? Don’t need it certainly, but it was in the WH instructions so I followed it. Granted, it is there for people putting the newer starters in existing trucks. For a new build it is redundant. Helps with wiring the way I have it done but not needed. Some sites said it makes the relay on the starter last longer but don’t really buy it. In hindsight, I would not have two relays.

Hugh

 

[DirtDonk]

Glad it's up and running!
What exactly did you change around to keep it running?

Why two relays? Don’t need it certainly, but it was in the WH instructions so I followed it.

Our instructions for the starter? Hmm, interesting.
I'd like to see that sometime if you have a chance to scan it or take a quick pic of it. It's not listed in the instructions we have on our web page. Only showing the original Ford starter relay with both types of starters.
And a pic of your dual relay setup would be cool too in fact.

Some sites said it makes the relay on the starter last longer but don’t really buy it. In hindsight, I would not have two relays.

Yeah, I don't really buy it either. At least not in the case of our Fords with an existing relay on the fender feeding the new piggyback solenoid on the starter.
I bet on a GM vehicle however, where the ignition switch goes straight to the solenoid on the starter, a new relay on the fender could possibly help the solenoid last longer after the ignition switch and wiring get older and voltage drop becomes an issue.

Not really an issue here I don't think. But any relay will help the ignition switch last longer. Which is at least one of the reasons Ford uses a relay in the first place I would think.

Paul

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Not really a separate relay. The solenoid on the starter functions like a relay, that is what I’m referring to. The system functions like there are two relays. Could just drop the starter relay entirely with the PMGR starter. The relay just gives a convenient location for power takeoff for me.

On a separate note, I just installed your 6degree shims as the rear end sent to me had the leaf spring perches welded on in the wrong angle. I have the 1.5” suspension lift and 1” body lift. Does this pinion angle look ok to you? I’m hoping it does as I REALLY don’t want to have to cut off the perches and weld them back on.

 

[DirtDonk]

No, don't do that. Keep it this way as this is also how Ford still does it.
Like you say, it's at least a convenient spot for power wires. But it has a safety isolating aspect to it as well.
Yeah, the wording threw me off. The piggyback dealy bob on the starter is what's known as a solenoid. Yes it closes an electrical contact, but it does physical labor too, so is a solenoid. The fender mounted relay is only a mag-switch for an electrical contact. So it's a relay.

Unfortunately, no that angle looks well below what it should. Those perches must have been WAY off!
This pic was with them installed with the thick portion to the rear and the thin to the front, correct? If so "you're going to need a bigger boat" as Roy Scheider used to say.
Looks to me like you need another 6° shim at least.
Appears to be about 10 degrees down, but the picture could be skewing the results. By all means measure the difference between the two centerlines.

Good luck. Crossing fingers it's just the picture angle...%)

Paul

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

I’ll measure the difference. I may have to have it removed and reweld the perches on. I think your supplier just did it incorrectly on the rear end. Kind of a bummer as it should fit and I have had it powder coated. . .

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

And yes the shims were put in properly. It was WAY worse before I added these. Shouldn’t have needed them with the small amount of lift that I have but the angle is way off on the perches. I really don’t want to have 2 rows of shims on this. I was hoping to avoid having to reweld these. I’ll call Justin to discuss how you guys want to handle this.

Hugh