New problem with electrical, probably another freaking ground issue but unsure

[Mac2Night]

Let me first say, I am just about tired of these electrical issues I have been dealing with. Truck ran great until I fried the ignition box and magnetic pick up.

If you have read my other recent threads, you know that I have replaced just about everything in the ignition system (battery, box, solenoid, grounds, cables, starter, coil, switch). Since then it has been starting and running great for the past two weeks. I had even replaced all the grounds (battery to block, solenoid to starter) with 2 gauge last weekend just to upgrade them and avoid future grounding issues as recommended by Dirtdonk, Viperwolf and others.

Today, however, while driving to work I pulled my headlights on and had the radio going. Radio started cutting in and out. I pulled over, checked all the radio connection wires, still cut in and out. Then I decided to turn the headlights off and the radio worked fine without a single cut out. Couldn't see if headlights were on and off while driving. I then had the radio on and pulled the flashers on, started cutting in and out. Truck ran fine while I had these issues, just accessories going bonkers. Finally got to work and shut the truck off, battery was then too weak to start it, just had solenoid clicking.

I just went out to the parking lot after first posting this thread and the dang thing started right up! It is similar to my earlier problems in this way as it had been running fine but as soon as it got warmed up and turned off, it wouldn't start back up unit it sat there for an hour or so. Then I turned on the radio and headlights and no issues. Added the load of the flashers and heater fan and it still worked without cutting in and out.......?

Does the alternator suppose to have a ground strap or is it grounded through the block with the mounting bolt?

Yes, I have read other similar posts through the search function but got mixed info according to the situations board members posted, none were exactly like my situation other than responses that referred to grounding issues, headlight switch or voltage regulators. New altenator that was tested last week and was in perfect condition. I did not replace the regulator in my Odyssey of tracking down ignition issues over the past two months.

Any advice is appreciated as always! Mac

 

[70_Steve]

I had even replaced all the grounds (battery to block, solenoid to starter) with 2 gauge last weekend just to upgrade them and avoid future grounding issues as recommended by Dirtdonk, Viperwolf and others.

Today, however, while driving to work I pulled my headlights on and had the radio going. Radio started cutting in and out. I pulled over, checked all the radio connection wires, still cut in and out. Then I decided to turn the headlights off and the radio worked fine without a single cut out. Couldn't see if headlights were on and off while driving. I then had the radio on and pulled the flashers on, started cutting in and out. Truck ran fine while I had these issues, just accessories going bonkers. Finally got to work and shut the truck off, battery was then too weak to start it, just had solenoid clicking.

Yes, I have read other similar posts through the search function but got mixed info according to the situations board members posted, none were exactly like my situation other than responses that referred to grounding issues, headlight switch or voltage regulators. New altenator that was tested last week and was in perfect condition. I did not replace the regulator in my Odyssey of tracking down ignition issues over the past two months.

Sorry, didn't read your other thread...

You mentioned replacing all the grounds, and mentioned a couple, but I didn't see you mention the ground that might account for your experience. And that is, the body ground.

The engine will run fine, as it only needs the block grounded to run. But all the other electrical (with maybe one or two exceptions) use the body as a ground.

I mention grounding because you talked about an interation between the headlights and the radio. Assuming a stock wiring harness, the headlights are powered directly off "the loop" (wires 37 and 38, I believe). That is, the headlight switch is always powered, directly off the battery/alternator loop, and is independent of the ignition switch/ACC circuits. The radio, however, is powered off the ACC circuits. Point being that I don't believe the problem is on the 12 volt supply side...

You did mention a "solenoid to starter" ground. If installed the way I think it might be, that should be an effective body ground. I prefer a different way of grounding the body. I use a braided strap (Help section or battery cable section of any auto parts store) and bolt one end to the rear of the intake manifold, and the other get attached to the firewall. There are lots of places on the firewall to securely attach that ground strap. I like a bit heavier-than-normal strap, since, on my Bronco, that's the only body ground and, as mentioned, all the electrical "stuff" (except starter and a few other exceptions) gets grounded through that strap.

Grounding can do wierd stuff. I remember a post, many years ago, from a guy who was listening to his Bronco stereo while working on the drivetrain. He asked why, when he removed his front drive shaft, the radio cut out....

 

[Mac2Night]

Steve,

Yes, there is a braided strap on the back of the block to the firewall already. I say that, but admit that it was there when I got the truck and I have not taken it off and re-bolted it to assure a good ground. I did pull on it and it seemed attached well at both locations.

[I use a braided strap (Help section or battery cable section of any auto parts store) and bolt one end to the rear of the intake manifold, and the other get attached to the firewall. There are lots of places on the firewall to securely attach that ground strap. I like a bit heavier-than-normal strap, since, on my Bronco, that's the only body ground and, as mentioned, all the electrical "stuff" (except starter and a few other exceptions) gets grounded through that strap.]

 

[Viperwolf1]

You are not getting enough current to the circuits inside. That causes the voltage to drop on those circuits. You have a bottleneck (high resistance) somewhere in the common path of current to those circuits. Add in the intermittent problem starting and it kind of narrows the problem down to battery/ground cables and connections. Take the cables off the battery and clean them and the posts. Clean the connections on the battery side of the starter solenoid. Make sure the fusible link is connected well.

 

[Mac2Night]

Thanks Viperwolf. I will check all these connections even though all were taken off last weekend and carefully reinstalled and double checked. I never have checked the fusible link for tightness though, but I will check everything again till I hammer it out.

 

[Mac2Night]

Never ends..... Drove home (it started right up after sitting all day) ran a little erratic (idled well, drove well under load but I had to really give it the gas at take off from a stop). Radio nor turn signals worked AT ALL.

Then I got within 3 blocks from my house and it started sputtering and lurching like it was out of gas..... Wouldn't stay running/idle at stop signs without me revving it. Oil pressure gauge kept spiking and the dropping to zero (usually stays between 30-40psi). Water temp gauge ran at 190F whole way.

Limped into my driveway and shut her down.... Nothing when I tried to restart. Pulled headlights on, bright.... Radio worked fine as did the turn signals.... Stumped and concerned!

 

[Mac2Night]

Never ends..... Drove home (it started right up after sitting all day) ran a little erratic (idled well, drove well under load but I had to really give it the gas at take off from a stop). Radio nor turn signals worked AT ALL.

Then I got within 3 blocks from my house and it started sputtering and lurching like it was out of gas..... Wouldn't stay running/idle at stop signs without me revving it. Oil pressure gauge kept spiking and the dropping to zero (usually stays between 30-40psi). Water temp gauge ran at 190F whole way.

Limped into my driveway and shut her down.... Nothing when I tried to restart. Pulled headlights on, bright.... Radio worked fine as did the turn signals.... Stumped and concerned!

Update front last 10 minutes: went out, jumped battery with my Bronco II... Started right up and ran fine.... Radio, flasher and turn signals all worked with headlights on and running, nothing cut out at all????????

 

[00gyrhed]

I feel your pain. I had an 87 Full size that acted the same way. would die and leave my wife stranded I would go out and everything work fine. It was a multitude of issues. but one thing I leaned in all of that. the magnetic pickups you buy from the local auto parts store are not worth a plug nickel. Just because you replaced it and it ran fine for a while doesnt mean its good after a few hours, or a few heat/cool cycles. I replaced so many I pulled the distributor and altered it so I could do it on the road without pulling the distributor. I sold it with one I bought from FORD. Dont know how klong it worked. I am not even pretending to clain that it is the cause of all your problems but I doubt you are going to find just one. I ran a completely seperate ignition circuit in that 87. completley divorced from the factory wiring before I finally got that thing to run right and still had problems with magnetic the pick up. Turn signals would come on for no reason and dont get me started on the windsheild wipers. I went through every ground in that truck, every switch, light etc. I even ran a 4 ga cable from the battery bolted to the engine block bolted to the frame and bolted to the body, then through the firewall under the dash and bolted it up there as well. The grounding solved the equipment control issues for the most part with a surprise every once in a while. the divorced ignition circuit cured the driving problems as lond as the magnetic pick up work.

the wiring insulation on the connectors in that truck was shrinking at the connectors and leaving about a 1/4" of bare wire at a lot of the connections. I went around and painted them all with liquid electrical tape. My guess is I missed some of them some where.

Anyway good luck. Unfortunately Its one of those things you pretty much have to fix yourself because its too expensive to pay someone to find and fix the issues.

 

[broncobilly72]

What are the amps on your alternator...if it's stock its about 60amps. had a similar problem like yours and switched to a higher amp alternator which cured all my problems.

 

[regreb]

Having some of your same issues. Working thru the pain this weekend too.

 

[WARDOG]

I may offer a some advice from my own bizarre electrical gremlins from the past, neither from a Bronco but both were Ford's.
Also since you replaced the ignition system you may have more than one problem.

I had a '77 F150. I did a semi-restore on it, mostly mechanical. I was getting a electrical gremlin that started slowly and intermittently but then would take over all dash gauges. Spiking the fuel, coolant, oil, and idiot lights. It turned out that the front turn signal bulb had corroded the socket and was sending 12v into the ground. The problem was so intermittent that when I started trying to track it down it would start working again.

Also - I had an '83 Mustang 5.0 GLX that would get to operating temp. then start sputtering and eventually die, or..sometimes it would run fine under a lower rpm but sputter when under load or higher rpm's. It would also run fine until you parked it, but would not restart until it cooled down. You could almost predict when it would start acting up based on the coolant temp gauge. Then it began having problems without getting hot.
Turned out it was the ignition pick-up coil magnet in the distributor that was going bad, and just got worse. Took me months to figure that one out.

Also if you have an electronic ignition box, make sure the box is grounded with a strap to the body as well.

I hope this helps. Please let us know what your problem was when you find it.

 

[Mac2Night]

Update

Well, after going over and over the ignition and charging system and replacing nearly every part (truck would start fine and run fine but after driving for a while the radio and lights would not stay on/cut in and out and then the truck would not start right after turning it off until it sat for a while or needed a jump start which then fired it right up), I MAY have found the culprit. This weekend I noticed that (1) for the (3) wires on the back of my alternator was not fully connected on the post. It appears to be the yellow w/ black stripe. I have not been able to drive it to see if there is any difference. It is hard with the harness all taped up and enclosed to trace the wire either to the battery or regulator (just haven't had much time to do so) AND the little metal tab on the harness that looks like it should be grounded somewhere (I read other posts about this tab needing to be grounded to the back of the alternator) (SEE PHOTO OF TAB I AM REFERRING TO BELOW FROM SOMEONE ELSE'S POST) was NOT mounted to anything (just hanging in the air). All seems to point to an alternator not hooked up to charge correctly. The alternator was a brand new, a 140 amp the previous owner installed a week before I bought it and seemed to work fine for a week or two of driving it until I fried my ignition box (a whole other thread I started six weeks ago). It appears that I trusted the wiring was done correctly, but not so. Like I said, this probably is my issue, but it is still tested. I did, however, have the truck's charging system tested last Saturday and everything (battery, starter, load) checked out perfectly but the alternator didn't register at all and the print out recommended checking it or replacing it. That is when I started digging a little deeper like I should have done weeks ago I know.... I am an idiot sometimes I know.

Any ideas on if I may have found my problem?

Thanks guys!

 

[DirtDonk]

Couple of things.
You're on the right track of some issues for sure. That tab is the alternator-to-regulator ground connection. Attach it to one of the two or three ground studs on the back of the alternator case. Use whichever one is the most convenient after attaching the Orange wire to the FLD post.
There is hopefully still a small gauge Black w/red wire coming out the other end of that plastic strain-relief that should run over to the fender and connect to one of the voltage regulator bolts.

The large Black w/yellow wire IS your charging system. Period.
It's the wire that the alternator charges the battery with, and powers all the accessories when the battery needs a charge.
It needs to be clean and tight, and you should double check the main connector near the ammeter gauge too. It's just a push-connector, but if it gets rusty or loose, your system will not work to peak efficiency.

Is this 140 amp alternator an early 1G type? Or a later internally regulated 3G type?
If you're not sure, post up some pictures of the alternator and it's connections so we can know for sure.
If it is, you don't need that Orange wire anymore, and the Black wire is too small anyway.

Which leads right into the other issue. The Black w/yellow wire is not large enough to always safely transfer those 140 amps that the new alternator is capable of. It can work for quite some time, as you've already seen, but the chance of a melt-down is very high. So it needs to be supplemented or replaced.

To do that, follow the same procedure that anyone does with a modern 3G swap.
Make or buy a heavy duty charging cable like this one we sell:
http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/category/Bronco_Starters
It's the #6025 on that page. The reason I showed the whole page though is that you can see a couple of different styles of alternator too.
Does yours look like either of those?

Anyway, what you're doing is basically bypassing the old Black w/yellow wire and making your own (much) larger gauge wire/cable straight to the battery or starter relay.

All of this may or may not cure your current problem. But it's sure to cure the potential future meltdown you don't want to add to your problem list!

Good luck.

Paul

 

[Mac2Night]

Thanks Paul! Very useful information as always. It isn't any wonder you have over 14k posts as you always are one of the first to pitch in and help someone who is struggling with a tech issue. ;D

My bad too for the misinformation, the currently installed alternator is a stock 1G unit (new) with the external regulator. I bought a new 140 amp 1 or 3 wire internal regulated alternator http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-810300/overview/ that I have not installed in an effort to increase my charging capacity (prior to me finding that wires were not hooked up correctly or the ground was missing). I will use your advice when I hook it up but will probably drive the truck for a while with the stock alternator to see if I resolved my issues by hooking it up correctly.

BTW though, the wire I had not completely installed on the back of the stock alt was not BLACK with a thin yellow ribbon, but YELLOW with a thin ribbon of black. I tried to photograph it last night to post here, but the angle and light was too low for it to come out. I will definitely photograph it when/if I pull the stock unit off and install the 140 amp unit though for clarification.

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks. If I ever get carpal-tunnel I guess I'll just have to go out and start wrenching to keep from typing!

That Yellow w/black sounds like it could be the old faded White w/black "stator" wire.
What year is your Bronco? If it's the 70 or '71, there should not be a stator wire. But later years had one, and I've seen a ton of them faded to yellow.

Anyway, when we see the picture that might clear it up.

Paul

 

[Mac2Night]

UPDATE! Problem solved

Well, after all the help here on the board, I finally took the new stock 65 amp alternator off to place the new 140amp unit on only to find that the stock unit was completely wired incorrectly and had ZERO ground. Rewired it (correctly) and grounded the dam* thing and bingo, that thing worked perfectly and I haven't had a battery issue since. Decided to take the 140amper back to Summit Racing yesterday and save $150.00 bucks for the next surprise!

Thanks for all the support guys!