• Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

No Brakes

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,682
Loc.
Upper SoKA
GM calipers commonly used are the "D52" and have a Ø2-15/16" piston.

A Ø1.00" bore m/c is going to have a pretty mushy feeling pedal, and the H-B will likely only make it worse. I would suggest going to a Ø1.25" bore m/c. Note that GM m/c's have a slightly narrower mounting hole pattern than do the Ford m/c's. Which original application your H-B unit is will determine what your usable options are.
 
OP
OP
hunter1

hunter1

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
372
Loc.
Maryville, Tn
It will help with travel but not until all the other things that eat up travel have been addressed. In order from pedal to MC

1. Manual pedal’s ratio isn’t optimally tuned for power brakes. Especially hydro. I made a 5:1 pedal but haven’t installed yet
2. Make sure you have bushing in pedal pin or can be introducing slop that needs taking up
3. Try to minimize gap between hydro pushrod and cup of MC
4. MC takeup distance isn’t easily addressed other than picking one that you know doesn’t have a lot

After all the above are addressed, a bigger MC will move more fluid and help with travel. But keep in mind that 0.125” across the first three items is already 0.75” of “wasted” pedal travel and coupling with maybe another 0.125” in MC takeup ports could result in 1.5” of pedal travel before fluid flows.

Going with too big of a MC can result in super touchy brakes, particularly with hydro forces. I *think* going bigger is goodness for pedal force since pressure at caliper will be reduced with bigger bore, but seems if flow is more, the pedal sensitivity will be touchy. I’m getting smarter in this area so take with grain of salt and listen to others.

My two cents, sure others have good input to add.

P.S. don’t discount having bleeder screw horizontal when bleeding. Super easy to pull a pin and rotate it slightly as needed. Was a bigger deal for me since my pinion is rotated a fair bit with my suspension lift and driveshaft alignment.

(editted my comment about MC size)
I currently do not have a bushing in the pushrod. My linkage is modified as I moved the HB out over the drivers wheel tub, so I may not have enough stroke. I was a little worried about this when I done it. To get more would put the pushrod in too much of a bind before straightening up?
IMG_1491.jpeg
IMG_1487.jpeg
IMG_2742.jpeg
 
OP
OP
hunter1

hunter1

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
372
Loc.
Maryville, Tn
GM calipers commonly used are the "D52" and have a Ø2-15/16" piston.

A Ø1.00" bore m/c is going to have a pretty mushy feeling pedal, and the H-B will likely only make it worse. I would suggest going to a Ø1.25" bore m/c. Note that GM m/c's have a slightly narrower mounting hole pattern than do the Ford m/c's. Which original application your H-B unit is will determine what your usable options are.
Was told it was from a Mustang Cobra when I bought it used??
 

Yeller

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
6,752
Loc.
Rogers County Oklahoma
I’m used to a lot more pedal driving my truck. The piston in my MC is one inch. It is some type of GM based design but with a screw down aluminum cover.
That helps. 1-1/8” is what a few if the vendors have been selling to battle the pedal being lower than what people expect. Not a huge issue with hydroboost but it does take more effort for the same braking. That is a bigger issue with vacuum. I know a few that have gone from 31” tires to 35” tires and they found the brake power lacking afterwards, moved from 1-1/8” to a 1” and were happy with the effort but have more pedal travel. Most modern brake systems use a very large bore master cylinder with more boost so the pedal travel is minimal and the feel is firm.
 
OP
OP
hunter1

hunter1

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
372
Loc.
Maryville, Tn
That helps. 1-1/8” is what a few if the vendors have been selling to battle the pedal being lower than what people expect. Not a huge issue with hydroboost but it does take more effort for the same braking. That is a bigger issue with vacuum. I know a few that have gone from 31” tires to 35” tires and they found the brake power lacking afterwards, moved from 1-1/8” to a 1” and were happy with the effort but have more pedal travel. Most modern brake systems use a very large bore master cylinder with more boost so the pedal travel is minimal and the feel is firm.
I'll be running 33's when it's all said and done. Worth trying a 1-1/8" bore MC or do you think it would be a disappointment?
 

Yeller

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
6,752
Loc.
Rogers County Oklahoma
With hydroboost you won’t be disappointed in the power and it will make the pedal feel firmer with less travel. Me I’d get it fully in the road and drive it to make a final decision. One thing is certain, with everything bled and adjusted total brake power will not be an issue.
 

ksagis

Contributor
Aspiring Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
344
Love your build!

Look's like you have close to a similar length arm on the brake pedal and the arm going to the HB. I'm biased, but wouldn't be the place I'd start on the geometry.

There's a thread on this topic here.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,524
What I am seeing wrong with the geometry...
The pushrod is too short. This causes the new arm to have a bad angle. Makes for a digressive ratio between the brake pedal throw and the master cylinder travel.
Long time ago I learned that the angle between the pedal pivot to pushrod pivot and the pushrod should never go over 90°. Even at full stroke. If the pedal angle sweep is 15°, the pushrod angle should start at 75° and end at 90°. Even a hair lower is still good.

With the angle you have (guessing, not a good camera angle), you are starting at ~100+° of angle. As you press the pedal the angle rises even more. This gives a better mechanical advantage, but that makes the brakes feel like crap. The effort doesn't climb as naturally expected, the stroke increases at a faster rate than the effectivness gains. You need a longer pushrod and correct the clocking of the new arm,

While I am looking at this, how are you locking the pedal to the shaft? Almost looks like a roll pin. Maybe a small diameter bolt? Not thrilled with that one. You can generate massive pedal forces in a panic stop. I've known people who have bent brake pedals in a panic situation. Even if you say you will never do that, what about someone else who may drive this at some time in the future? While at it, and brake feel, how springy is that rod? You are now making it a small torsion bar. Adding a spring to the brake system. What you are doing has been done before. The mid 70's Hondas were a right hand drive design and the left hand drive design for the American market kept the brakes in the original location. They ran a bar like you are doing to the passenger side where the master was at. But I recall it was a torsionally stiff, larger diameter tube (been many years so I may be off).

Going to a larger master isn't always the fix. I was running the GM conversion with a mustang hydroboost and the 15/16" master. Tossed ToddZ the keys and let him drive it. Got a compliment for good brake feel from him. I started with the "get a bigger bore master" and slowly progressed my way down to smaller and smaller masters, each time with better results.

Not the happiest with the angle the pushrod enters the booster either. While it works, I am not a fan of that much long term side loading inside the booster. I would normally like to see the booster lowered. But I see that puts the accumulator into the inner fender, and it already looks like the final finish is on that. Angling the master up a little in the front is another option. Or a little of both. I don't think you can completely straighten the angle of the pushrod entering the booster, but I think there is room for a minor improvment.
 
OP
OP
hunter1

hunter1

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
372
Loc.
Maryville, Tn
What I am seeing wrong with the geometry...
The pushrod is too short. This causes the new arm to have a bad angle. Makes for a digressive ratio between the brake pedal throw and the master cylinder travel.
Long time ago I learned that the angle between the pedal pivot to pushrod pivot and the pushrod should never go over 90°. Even at full stroke. If the pedal angle sweep is 15°, the pushrod angle should start at 75° and end at 90°. Even a hair lower is still good.

With the angle you have (guessing, not a good camera angle), you are starting at ~100+° of angle. As you press the pedal the angle rises even more. This gives a better mechanical advantage, but that makes the brakes feel like crap. The effort doesn't climb as naturally expected, the stroke increases at a faster rate than the effectivness gains. You need a longer pushrod and correct the clocking of the new arm,

While I am looking at this, how are you locking the pedal to the shaft? Almost looks like a roll pin. Maybe a small diameter bolt? Not thrilled with that one. You can generate massive pedal forces in a panic stop. I've known people who have bent brake pedals in a panic situation. Even if you say you will never do that, what about someone else who may drive this at some time in the future? While at it, and brake feel, how springy is that rod? You are now making it a small torsion bar. Adding a spring to the brake system. What you are doing has been done before. The mid 70's Hondas were a right hand drive design and the left hand drive design for the American market kept the brakes in the original location. They ran a bar like you are doing to the passenger side where the master was at. But I recall it was a torsionally stiff, larger diameter tube (been many years so I may be off).

Going to a larger master isn't always the fix. I was running the GM conversion with a mustang hydroboost and the 15/16" master. Tossed ToddZ the keys and let him drive it. Got a compliment for good brake feel from him. I started with the "get a bigger bore master" and slowly progressed my way down to smaller and smaller masters, each time with better results.

Not the happiest with the angle the pushrod enters the booster either. While it works, I am not a fan of that much long term side loading inside the booster. I would normally like to see the booster lowered. But I see that puts the accumulator into the inner fender, and it already looks like the final finish is on that. Angling the master up a little in the front is another option. Or a little of both. I don't think you can completely straighten the angle of the pushrod entering the booster, but I think there is room for a minor improvment.
That was a roll pin in the shaft but have since pressed a hardened dowel in it and spot welded on either end. The shaft is mildly hardened. It is stock hydraulic cylinder rod. I see what you mean about creating a torsion effect with it, but with the short length, I don't expect much. As far as the angle, must be the picture, this is with the pedal up, not depressed, not over 90* but I see what you're saying about the gain in stroke. Probably going to have to see what I can do in relation to the pushrod angle.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,682
Loc.
Upper SoKA
What is the OD of the cylinder rod?

[EDIT] 300 ft-lbs of torque on that shaft is very easily within the range of possible.
 
Last edited:

ksagis

Contributor
Aspiring Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
344
I follow the theory of preferring a gain in stroke from @Broncobowsher thread above, but the gain going from 75 to 90 degrees is 3.5%, and conversely, the reduction in gain going from 90 to 75 is 3.5%. Feels like that might be hard to feel in pedal force, particularly with a HB in play and changing forces with movement in spool valve.

Does anybody have real world experience on side loading a hydroboost leading to premature seal failure? Any if so, how much was the side loading angle? I've been holding on installing my 5:1 pedal and would love more info if folks have it.

Edit: Looking at geometry a bit more of rod to HB in the pic above, a good feature of current install results from as the brake pedal is pressed, it looks like the crank arm effective length gets shorted, which then results in a more inline press to HB, reducing side forces for high gain stops.
 
Last edited:

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,682
Loc.
Upper SoKA
That's pretty small for the torsion possible. I'd be looking to get something at least Ø1.00"OD in there.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,964
Great news! So we can see what a big difference 1/8 of an inch makes.
Hopefully it takes care of the slow return as well.
 

ksagis

Contributor
Aspiring Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
344
Glad you got it sorted out

Curious if you changed any of the crank arm geometry or left it the same?

Did you need to align the rear caliper bleed screws horizontal at all?

Good brakes just makes me smile!
 
OP
OP
hunter1

hunter1

Contributor
Jr. Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
372
Loc.
Maryville, Tn
Glad you got it sorted out

Curious if you changed any of the crank arm geometry or left it the same?

Did you need to align the rear caliper bleed screws horizontal at all?

Good brakes just makes me smile!
Thanks! Did nothing with the geometry of the linkage. It was OK before, I just think it was a bad camera angle from the pic that was confusing some. I had previously removed the rear calipers and bled them in the upright position with a vacuum bleeder but still didn't gain any pedal.
 
Top