NORRA class and rules

[markw]

Go for it!

 

[Rox Crusher]

Go for it!

I’d love to make the commitment but seems like a lot of risk due to uncertainty about class rules in the future. 33” tire limit etc. I can’t muster anything for 2020 regardless so I am going to meet up with Chris Greenwood to pick his brain before making my decision

 

[markw]

Rox, I could well be wrong but I don't think there will be more rule revisions for some time. This was a pretty big deal this time around. Yes, see what Chris says, he's probably more informed than I am. I do think the new rules makes it more reasonable to build a Pioneer class Bronco by limiting some of the more expensive parts like big shocks, full float axles, electronic transmissions, fuel injection, etc. Looks like you can have a 347. So a D44 front, 347 with carb, C4, D20 and trussed stock width 9", 15" wheels with 33" tires, rear shocks not protruding through the bed, stock style bump stops all make for a less expensive build. The steepest learning curve is suspension and driving skills. It's easy to have more power than you can use and really difficult to come up with the correct suspension setup. That's part of the reason Boyd Jaynes is so fast, he's got his suspension dialed in. They're good drivers too.
Depending on what you're starting with it'll take a full year to build your rig. Go for it!!

 

[enesset]

Mark don't forget that Boyd isn't a very big guy but his balls are humongous!

The top off road speed for me in my Manx is his slow cruise speed.

 

[markw]

Well he’s fast. No doubt about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[landshark99]

Personally I am still a little dumbfounded that what started as a simple suspension clarification has turned into a full blown micro detail re-classification of Pioneer and Legends classes. While I understand what the end goal of the new new rules are trying to accomplish, it's obvious that the implementation of the new new rules and the consequences of them were not taken into account given the amount of time until the start of the 2020 M1K.

Putting my issues aside there were three other builds that were underway for the Pioneer class that I have been helping with through advice on build direction, rule clarification, race planning and other stuff. One is a 69 Blazer, the two others are Broncos. I say "were" as one has walked away from their build as they cannot afford to make the changes necessary since the new rules came out and they have no desire to race in the Legends in 2020. Both of the other builds are underway but won't be ready for 2020, however for the very same reason that Jeff (Rox) has voiced above, they also are having second thoughts.

My issues are very similar to the above, there were sweeping and EXPENSIVE changes made to define what the Pioneer class should be without warning. We were blind sided by the posted rules in October, they were light years different from the contents of the emails passed around previously throughout the summer. Then, after I had paid our entry fee the rules were changed yet again that had a profound effect on us. Had we had sufficient notification, some kind of warning, we might have had some hope to remain in Pioneer with the new new engine rules. I had to pull my engine immediately after the 2019 NORRA in order to have it rebuilt and have sufficient time to test the Bronco before winter closed in. Besides the engine, the rest of the new new rules for Pioneer are actually trivial to implement for us. After all, we were told at the 2019 M1K inspection/contingency by NORRA that our Bronco was the definition of new Pioneer class builds, but apparently not.

I understand there will always be politics at play in racing, as obviously there are in this case. I also understand that I hold very little clout through my political and/or sponsorship connections at NORRA. What I am hoping to accomplish in writing this is that future decisions are vetted for not only classifying vehicles but what ramifications they might have for current/future participants.

I fund myself, I don't have a partner(s) but do have the fortunate benefit of having the most talented and generous crew, friends and family to make it all come together. I have no desire to race in any other class other than Pioneer, we built the Bronco in 8 months to race other Broncos and others in the Pioneer 4x4 class. Now as it stands, we have been bumped into Legends 4x4 to race with ourselves.

I have paid my entry fee, so NORRA has my money. I could probably get aggressive and get it back but at the end of the day we love Baja, love racing and will have a great time.

 

[BajaBronco]

Thanks for posting up landshark99. Good to hear from everyone who races in the class and get the different perspectives. I'm surprised NORRA got the rules done for the 2020 race as I was speculating at contingency when we were told there would be more rules, that it would probably be another full year before any changes were in the works.


I agree with markw that the likelihood of another rule change is pretty slim. And again less likely if NORRA knows that some folks are turned away by any kind of rule change at all. In the end, tho, as said, NORRA is a great time. I think those 2 Broncos and 69 Blazer should continue to build... If not pioneer, Legends will be just as fun, wouldn't it? Cost? Sell the expensive shocks, or (insert a given part), and go with the simpler Pioneer or stock part to make it Pioneer compliant? Motors are expensive no matter the size, so I get that expense being a drag in your particular situation. ....Was it motors the builds you know of had built that they can't use?
If tires were the cost, big can be traded or returned for smaller as most tire stores will do that. But like Rox posted the 33" tire rule might be changing his mind, but that would have been Legends anyway based on rules long before the 2020 change.

Most teams I know that go to NORRA seem to really enjoy the race. I for one have a blast.

So I guess that leads me to the 2 part question:

Whats wrong with Legends class? (or Challenger class for the matter?)

and

And why is Pioneer the must have class for everyone?


I honestly want to know as I see many folks adamant about being Pioneer; not just preferring to be in Pioneer - It's just a classification of cars/trucks/buggies with 1967-1975 Era appropriate pieces....

 

[Rox Crusher]

Why Pioneer ?

For me it primarily boils down to making a compromise between having fun competing and cost containment. I love the auto racing environment but have a kid in college with two more to follow (at the same time) so I can't afford to go very deep with a hobby.

I like the idea of Pioneer where I believe the spirit of the class is supposed to foster entry level / period correct racing efforts. You run a couple of races a year to have fun but then you go back to your daily life when the races are over. Your whole world doesn't revolve around racing and sponsorships and constantly chasing costly performance improvements. Tell me if I am wrong.

I raced stock cars for almost 10 years when I was much younger and didn't have kids. I raced at a track that had the rules set up such that I could run in Super Stock and Sportsman just by changing tires, carb, and making some suspension adjustments. This allowed people to move up through to highly competitive (and costly) Late Model class.

So it isn't about the cost difference between 33" or 35" tires (consumables) I'm worried about. It's the expense of building "XYZ" thinking you can get a few seasons out of it only to find you now have to build "ZYX" after one season.

Thanks for letting me chime in and I hope to join you fellows for some fun times in Norra.

 

[toddz69]

I like the idea of Pioneer where I believe the spirit of the class is supposed to foster entry level / period correct racing efforts. You run a couple of races a year to have fun but then you go back to your daily life when the races are over. Your whole world doesn't revolve around racing and sponsorships and constantly chasing costly performance improvements. Tell me if I am wrong.

Thanks for letting me chime in and I hope to join you fellows for some fun times in Norra.

Rox - your first paragraph pretty much sums it up for me (and I believe my team as well). We run on an extremely limited budget but love the comraderie, competition, and good times at NORRA. Looking forward to you joining us!

Todd Z.

 

[enesset]

When I used to race my Mazda I went from NA to turbo and rather than dyno and go through adding and subtracting points for this and that I just went TTU which is unlimited. I’m surprised guys aren’t building what you want and then who cares what class your rig is in? Unless you really like old school, period correct, open helmet, etc then Pioneer should only be real basic true to vintage technology rigs?

If it’s not very vintage technology then why should Legends or challenger or whatever class matter? Come out, have fun, hear and tell stories, drink beers and eat tacos, it’s been a lot of great NORRA’s and everyone should come down and experience it.

 

[markw]

Lots of good comments here, very healthy discussion. Chris, thank you for expressing your frustration, it helps open the door.
I very much understand your problem with being bumped to Legends. The real issue is you are indeed racing yourself and a finish is a first in class. Nice trophy but a little hollow.
We're all in this to have fun but to be honest, we're all competitive and it really adds to the excitement to compare times and strategy for the next day. We got bumped to Legends and now to Challenger. Short of building an entire new suspension and drivetrain there is no way to ever get back into either of the classes. My biggest question is why the CI displacement rule? Chris W himself said it's not the power, it's the suspension that limits speed. So true. That honestly makes me think there was some politics behind the scene. As I suspect we all do. That's pretty galling and petty really. Kept Chris out of Pioneer where he could have been very competitive. If any rule should be changed it the displacement. How do they check? Do a NASCAR/SCORE balloon test? Ask for documentation from the builder? Take the mouse's whisper? Anyhow, I agree with Andrew, you guys who are on the fence, keep at the project. A Pioneer build is by far the least expensive and most straightforward to do. And it would be fun to have several EBs in the class or several in Legends if possible. I still say GO FOR IT!!!

 

[BajaBronco]

Agree with you Mark - Keep building! And Enesset, you get what I'm saying too - NORRA is NORRA and whether Pioneer or Legends or challenger , entry cost is the same, course is the same, fun is the same. I think maybe there's some idea that Pioneer is the OnLY way to go....and it's not. And if a class win is your goal, actually Legends historically has had a slower pace (okay not last year); but prior years there have been some actual historic pickups racing there that have not kept up with the pioneer 4x4 pace. Okay, I'll do one more post today and then I'm back to work - and have to do a few things to Kaysinger's racer to make even IT pioneer legal by current rules.

 

[BajaBronco]

inspiration pics

 

[markw]

Now there's some inspiration for everyone!

 

[DelDiablo]

Personally I am still a little dumbfounded that what started as a simple suspension clarification has turned into a full blown micro detail re-classification of Pioneer and Legends classes. While I understand what the end goal of the new new rules are trying to accomplish, it's obvious that the implementation of the new new rules and the consequences of them were not taken into account given the amount of time until the start of the 2020 M1K.

Putting my issues aside there were three other builds that were underway for the Pioneer class that I have been helping with through advice on build direction, rule clarification, race planning and other stuff. One is a 69 Blazer, the two others are Broncos. I say "were" as one has walked away from their build as they cannot afford to make the changes necessary since the new rules came out and they have no desire to race in the Legends in 2020. Both of the other builds are underway but won't be ready for 2020, however for the very same reason that Jeff (Rox) has voiced above, they also are having second thoughts.

My issues are very similar to the above, there were sweeping and EXPENSIVE changes made to define what the Pioneer class should be without warning. We were blind sided by the posted rules in October, they were light years different from the contents of the emails passed around previously throughout the summer. Then, after I had paid our entry fee the rules were changed yet again that had a profound effect on us. Had we had sufficient notification, some kind of warning, we might have had some hope to remain in Pioneer with the new new engine rules. I had to pull my engine immediately after the 2019 NORRA in order to have it rebuilt and have sufficient time to test the Bronco before winter closed in. Besides the engine, the rest of the new new rules for Pioneer are actually trivial to implement for us. After all, we were told at the 2019 M1K inspection/contingency by NORRA that our Bronco was the definition of new Pioneer class builds, but apparently not.

I understand there will always be politics at play in racing, as obviously there are in this case. I also understand that I hold very little clout through my political and/or sponsorship connections at NORRA. What I am hoping to accomplish in writing this is that future decisions are vetted for not only classifying vehicles but what ramifications they might have for current/future participants.

I fund myself, I don't have a partner(s) but do have the fortunate benefit of having the most talented and generous crew, friends and family to make it all come together. I have no desire to race in any other class other than Pioneer, we built the Bronco in 8 months to race other Broncos and others in the Pioneer 4x4 class. Now as it stands, we have been bumped into Legends 4x4 to race with ourselves.

I have paid my entry fee, so NORRA has my money. I could probably get aggressive and get it back but at the end of the day we love Baja, love racing and will have a great time.

I think the moral of this mess is, careful what you wish for.
Some participants pointed fingers and said "but but he's got X and those are X!!" In turn NORRA was forced to define the rules and now everything is scrambled up. The fact that the 26 has the abillity to stay in pioneer just supports what we have been saying all along. Stock suspension, 302 based carbed motor, D44, 9" non-floating, stock bumps, D20 and a C4. If we can change our rear shocks to meet the rules we are going to do it... again to prove a point. They don't make us faster. They are longer but don't give more travel. It sucks that the rules have been changed and now the Broncos are all spread out but again I say this... you guys did this.
BTW for those that think we have enough influence to get rules changed in our favor... I'm flattered but it isn't the case. Norra doesn't give a rat's ass where we race nor does our sponsors.
Moving forward I propose a Bronco Driver's gentlemen's side wager... forget classes, just go for broke OA times. Let's get a pool going and have cash awards by day/OA race times and maybe even stage times? We've always been open to racing whatever you guys bring down. What do you say? A race within a race?
-B

 

[markw]

Boyd, good points. I will say that the rules did need to be refined. I don't agree with the seemingly arbitrary engine displacement rule but I don't think the rest is unreasonable. I'm not butthurt about having to move classes. Now anyway. My Bronco is so far out of compliance it's going where it belongs. Didn't know that when I built it but that's my problem.
I still maintain that the new Pioneer rules define pretty well what can be built and that's a great help to a new builder and racer. Sometimes things need to be defined and the old rules didn't do that very well. So I personally think it's an improvement. And I really hope it encourages other guys to build and race.
Now a race in a race might be fun! I'm not the driver so I'll run it by Randy. Let's have a good time and remain in the Bronco Brotherhood! Mark

 

[landshark99]

I have decided that I have had enough and traded the bronco in to go race in the RV class... although that Westy is fast!!!

 

[Bukin 67]

I have decided that I have had enough and traded the bronco in to go race in the RV class... although that Westy is fast!!!

Sorry, no solar allowed in that class. It wasn't available then. You're bumped to Evo prerunners ;D;D

 

[BajaBronco]

Niiice! Me too!! I can't even pass that Westy with my Bronco tho.

I have decided that I have had enough and traded the bronco in to go race in the RV class... although that Westy is fast!!!

 

[landshark99]