NORRA class and rules

[eb-nutt1]

I'm from the southeast, but always dreamed of racing in baja... currently own 2 eb's, 2 79bb's, and a 4 seat rzr...am I to understand that there were rzrs racing in the class with the Broncos?

 

[markw]

No, the rzrs in different classes but we're all on the same course. My point being that since it's the easiest way for people to get into the race it's become very popular and there are more every year. I'd like to see more old iron participate even if it's a pipe dream.

 

[enesset]

House....we can change that "non-racer" status for you super quick!

 

[House]

house....we can change that "non-racer" status for you super quick!

lol... Bronco, Manx, or RZR ?!?

 

[markw]

Well, Manx are cool, Broncos more so, leave the RZR at your HOUSE!

Just got my new radius arms from Duffs....Pioneer Class here we come!

 

[BajaBronco]

So for now, it appears the only difference in rules between Pioneer ad Legend 4x4 classes is the wording "stock suspension" on Pioneer, ad "Stock suspension concept" on Legend. Tire size the same, all other bullet points (4 only!) are the same. 35" tires, 2" shocks, no coilover no bypass, and body existed in that time frame. BUt in the case of the bronco it'd mean leafs out back and arms and coils up front-just in legend youd have more freedom on length of both.

My question is why does everyone want to race Pioneer class so badly when the rules are so close?

Curious as to what things should be not included for Pioneer 4x4. Beadlocks? A couple things that come to mind are: more strict shock location or length rule. Stock diameter axle housings.

One racer argued that the Duff arms in stock length dont offer any advantage over stock, and I tend to disagree, but I dont run them. Anyone bend one yet? Mike?

 

[Bukin 67]

So for now, it appears the only difference in rules between Pioneer ad Legend 4x4 classes is the wording "stock suspension" on Pioneer, ad "Stock suspension concept" on Legend. Tire size the same, all other bullet points (4 only!) are the same. 35" tires, 2" shocks, no coilover no bypass, and body existed in that time frame. BUt in the case of the bronco it'd mean leafs out back and arms and coils up front-just in legend youd have more freedom on length of both.

My question is why does everyone want to race Pioneer class so badly when the rules are so close?

Curious as to what things should be not included for Pioneer 4x4. Beadlocks? A couple things that come to mind are: more strict shock location or length rule. Stock diameter axle housings.

One racer argued that the Duff arms in stock length dont offer any advantage over stock, and I tend to disagree, but I dont run them. Anyone bend one yet? Mike?

I think you and I both know why everyone wants to squeeze into Pioneer. Once you squeeze in you get a shot at the overall which means a shot at $ponsorship$.

To me it's pretty simple. It should be period correct (or as close as we can get) to what was available on the Bronco from the factory or Baja Stroppe. That or leave the rules as is with a couple of tweaks, one of those being the shock length. A true sportsman should be just as happy racing in Legends.

Is someone running full widths?

 

[BajaBronco]

No one is running full widths, but track measurement is another consideration. I was referring to Currie housings, which imo don’t need trusses . I believe a Currie 44 has 3” tubes. At least when I went to install their track bar mount (simply to repair mine) it was radiused for 3” tube and didn’t fit my stock 44 2.5”tubes.

I hear ya. Just thinking out loud. Agree on the overall.

 

[landshark99]

Good news! I just got my new radius arms

At least new to me

 

[BajaBronco]

Looking good and straight! Best kind!!

 

[eb-nutt1]

Markw--Thanks for the clarification...I assumed as much, but you never know. A box stock rzr with safety upgrades could be ready to race for 25k probably, venture to guess yall have quite a bit more than that in your EB racers! I love old iron, but from a entry level standpoint, racing a rzr is way more cost effective. Good luck in your endeavors to level the playing field with your rule changes, from reading, there has been some good suggestions so far.

 

[markw]

Thanks eb-nutt1. Yes the RZRs are very popular for that reason. Seems there are some outfits renting them for the race and providing support, the best of both worlds for those who want to get into desert racing. Unfortunately it creates some issues with safety as a direct result of inexperience. It would be pretty hard to build a Pioneer class EB for less than $50K unless a person could truly do all the work. A big investment. But way less than a lot of folks have in their rigs.

 

[markw]

Andrew, your thoughts are right in line with mine regarding Pioneer. Rigs like mine and BJs really don't belong there, nor does Chris with his engine. Ideally it would be a truck like Chris's with a 302 block. Big axles, multiple high dollar shocks, long springs, fuel injection, electronic ignition, 35" tires, etc. should be in Legends. However, until NORRA makes those changes, here we are.
Regarding the Duffs radius arms creating an advantage. The only performance advantage might be a sharper turning radius with big tires. Not really an advantage in desert racing unless you're stuck between rocks or something. However, they are significantly stronger which I see as a safety advantage. If a no bend arm is the goal I would have a stock length, straight arm built. However, since the NORRA saw fit to allow those Duffs arms this year I will run them next year. If they are outlawed I will stay in Legends and race against Boyd who will either join us there or revert to stock arms and stay in Pioneer with all of his other trick parts.
Now, I don't think it will work to make a bunch of big rule changes for Pioneer for 2020. If the goal is a more nostalgia, "everyman" class it needs to have very clear rules and be promoted for a couple of years to allow people to plan and build their racers. Pretty clear I think that's the way to go in the long run. In the short run we need to get together and clarify the existing rules so we don't have another donnybrook at contingency.

 

[garberz]

I’m very interested in this topic, and I fully understand what all of you are wanting to do with rule changes. Once you get the suspension rules ironed out for Pioneer class, I think that class should still be limited to carb. and 302W based engines.
How would these changes effect other vehicles that are competitive in Pioneer short wheel base class? Is there any other vehicle close enough to the Bronco that these rule changes would affect? I’ve never been down to Baja, but I sure plan on going pretty soon.

Mark

 

[toddz69]

How would these changes effect other vehicles that are competitive in Pioneer short wheel base class? Is there any other vehicle close enough to the Bronco that these rule changes would affect? I’ve never been down to Baja, but I sure plan on going pretty soon.

Mark

I don't think there would be very much effect at all. It's traditionally been a "Bronco class" and the rules were written as such. This year, Ned Bacon drove a Mahindra Roxor "Jeep" in the class. In terms of being competitive with the Broncos, it really wasn't, but Ned comes down to have fun nonetheless and we were cool with him in the class (at least I think we all were ).

Todd Z.

 

[toddz69]

In Pioneer, I would like to have NORRA specify a stock WMS-to-WMS dimension, i.e. no wheel spacers or adapters.

Todd Z.

 

[markw]

Good point Todd. Do you think you'd be willing to write up some points to clarify some of the rules? If there are major changes to the class I think they will need to be implemented in a year or two to give people a chance to comply or decide to run in a different class.
On that note, I've been chewing on the idea of building a new EB racer to serve as a prototype for what I think Pioneer class should be once the rules are decided upon. Beats sleeping at night, right?

 

[toddz69]

Good point Todd. Do you think you'd be willing to write up some points to clarify some of the rules? If there are major changes to the class I think they will need to be implemented in a year or two to give people a chance to comply or decide to run in a different class.
On that note, I've been chewing on the idea of building a new EB racer to serve as a prototype for what I think Pioneer class should be once the rules are decided upon. Beats sleeping at night, right?

Man, you don't let any grass grow under your feet!

I'd be willing to write up some proposed points/rule clarifications for Pioneer but I need to beg off for awhile with everything I have going on right now. Give me a month or two and I'll be on it!

Todd Z.

 

[markw]

I know! Not like I don't have better things to do with my time. A couple of months will be perfect, gives everyone time to give it thought. My idea is that having an engineer write the proposal will really help make it correct and clear. In the meantime I have some repairing to do on GMR #66. We found the weak spots!

 

[landshark99]

, i.e. no wheel spacers or adapters.

Todd Z.

I might argue a little with this point, not taking sides but just a thought. Running 15" wheels and fitting aftermarket (and some factory) brake calipers could be a challenge with some wheels especially if those wheels do not offer a suitable backspacing. Sure you could step up to a 17" wheel but thats not really an option.. .

If someone was to run spacers, it would seem to put additional stress and introduce more failure points on components, would it not?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the WMS to WMS measurement idea to make sure the stock widths are used. However, with all the combinations of parts you can use to build or race a Bronco it will inevitably lead to leveraging the aftermarket or fix gaps to make some things work.

Honestly it's half the fun some times to see what combo works, within budget of course - oh budget where did you go???