picking a cam & other upgrades, '94 351W Lightning eng. in '69 EB w/ Mustang A9P MAF

[mattt]

picking a cam & other upgrades, '94 351W Lightning eng. in '69 EB w/ Mustang A9P MAF

I'm sorting out which cam to get, and what other upgrades to do engine wise at the same time and I'm looking for a concensus of opinion.

I have a complete 94 Lightning engine ONLY, that I'm going to install in my EB. I have already stripped off all the smog crap(Thermactor, Smog Pump, etc), all the stock Lightning Speed Density crap, and some other crap that I'm not using(front accessory package(Alt, PS Pump, AC Comp, etc)). I'm going to run the engine with a modified Mustang(89-93) harness, and most likely an A9P Mustang ECU. Since that vintage Mustang setup is Mass Air Flow, I have some leniency in setting up the engine. I spoke to Ford Motorsports, and they 100% recommended using the 5.0 Mustang 89-93 electronics. They also suggested their 12071-A50 stand alone SBF EFI harness, but at $650, I decided to look into other options, RK harness.

Due to space constraints, I'm using an Explorer 5.0 serp front accessory package. Since I have to swap out the timing cover anyway, and since I'm pulling the intake to clean it up, I figured what better time to make a cam swap, and at least get a roller cam into this thing. I have an F4TE block, so according to what I read it should be roller capable.

Other than the cam, lifters, spider, "dog bones", & new pushrods....anything else I would need to convert to roller?

I was thinking new cam and lifters, but if the right one comes along for the right price and has very little use, I'd consider used too. With a roller cam & lifters, does it matter as much if it's used like it does with a flat tappet cam?

I've had a few people mention the Trick Flow Stage 1 cam. What about the Stage 2 cam is too radical for the stock GT40 heads I have? Would GT40P heads be a better choice?

Given what I'm planning to use the Early Bronco for, I'd like to see both HP & TQ over 300. Will the Trick Flow Stage 1 get me there, or do I need to step up another notch? Anything else I should do at the same time to get the HP/TQ #'s I'm after? This is the important question to me....anything else I should do before dropping the engine in the EB? Since I have it on a stand, any other modifications to make are easy right now. I'd prefer to set this up correctly the first time around.

I'm considering eliminating the EGR valve and spacer at the TB that it mounts to as this may allow me to keep the intake turned the correct way and still clear my PB booster/bracket. Is there any good reason NOT to eliminate the EGR? If I turn the intake around to face the pass. side I then have a conflict with the upper intake hitting the fuel pressure regulator and not seating down all the way. I've also considered taking the heads off and freshening them up, but then I'm starting down the road of, is it just better to buy aftermarket heads vs. dumping $$$ into factory heads. I could get a set of P's for not too much and freshen those up as well. I know about the whole spark plug angle conflict with them. Someone mentioned in the past that the P's have a smaller chamber which would help with bumping C/R up a bit.


I'm not sure if I'm going to use the factory Lightning shorties, the Thorley long tubes currently on the Early Bronco w/ 302, or something else.

I'm all ears.

P.S. If there are any stock Lightning parts you are after, I might have them for sale. I'm willing to trade these parts for anything I'm looking for...Roller Cam(TF, Comp or other mfg), Roller conversion parts, anything else interesting that would help with my build.

 

[mattt]

Any opinions out there on cam choice? I thought opinions were like @$$holes.... Anyone BTDT?

 

[COBlu77]

Here you go check out this link http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6867 .

I ended up using a stock 5.8l cam for a 92-96 Bronco because it had the lobe separation I was looking for it to run well with the my Mustang A9P ECU. I also had tried several cams in my EFI'd 302, before coming to the conclusion that even though I had a MAF system, the stock A9P still liked cams that were designed for EFI with a higher degree of lobe separation. You can probably use bigger cams, but you should have your ECU programmed on a dyno or get good at a TWEECER. I noticed also that the specs for the stock Lightning cam were slightly milder than a non-Lightning 5.8l stock cam. It had something to do with the way the speed density computers were programed for Lightnings.

I was looking for reliability and good low end torque. All the advise I got at the time was to stick with a stock cam.

 

[trailpsycho]

Crane Cam (2020 grind) #444211 or as a kit with springs and retainers 444212. Comp Cams recommended almost an identical cam as far as specs but it was $60-100 more. I installed this cam and springs in my new Explorer motor. I havent driven it on the road yet, but it idles great and seems to rev awesome. It has only moved out of the garage under its own power once so far...idling in 1st gear, with TC in low (@87:1; 4.88 gears, 3.18 lo, 5.6 1st)...it was happily crawling like a snail...if I revved it up to about 2500 or so I could actually move almost as fast as my friend who was walking along side.

A stock 5.0 cam may not be a bad choice...whats the specs on whats in it now?

 

[Broncobowsher]

I would not recomend the trick flow cam with stock heads (even the GT heads)
Stock mustang cam or the crane 2020 grind should either be good.
Watch the valve lift, the stock valvetrain will not take that much. Also the stock springs will not take a radical cam profile.

 

[broncnaz]

I would think the stock lightening cam would be good enough to get you to your torque numbers I wouldnt worry much about attaining the HP numbers. Or the other cams suggest but I wouldnt even consider the trick flow cam for a 4x4.
As for heads keep what you got the P heads are not worth the effort as you probably wont see any gain GT40 is GT40 same sized valves only a slight combustion chamber differance and that angled spark plug. I'd just freshen up what you got shouldnt cost much. Unless your looking for way bigger gains then you could go to aftermarket heads but you have decent heads already I'd stick to them in a 4x4.

 

[mattt]

Here you go check out this link http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6867 .

I ended up using a stock 5.8l cam for a 92-96 Bronco because it had the lobe separation I was looking for it to run well with the my Mustang A9P ECU. I also had tried several cams in my EFI'd 302, before coming to the conclusion that even though I had a MAF system, the stock A9P still liked cams that were designed for EFI with a higher degree of lobe separation. You can probably use bigger cams, but you should have your ECU programmed on a dyno or get good at a TWEECER. I noticed also that the specs for the stock Lightning cam were slightly milder than a non-Lightning 5.8l stock cam. It had something to do with the way the speed density computers were programed for Lightnings.

I was looking for reliability and good low end torque. All the advise I got at the time was to stick with a stock cam.

Thanks for that link on FSB.com. I read all 10 pages. Seems like most of what was being discussed there more-so had to do with cam choice that would work with Speed Density factory systems. Obviously, you are much more restricted with SD. Quite a few people with Lightning trucks have dropped in the stock factory 5.0 HO Mustang cam with good results. Again, they are limited by the SD system's ability to deal with changes. The Trick Flow Stage 1 cam doesn't seem to be much of a jump from stock 5.0 HO. Both of the cams I'm considering are made for Ford EFI systems, the TFS-1 and one from Compcams, 35-310-8 if I remember the # correctly.

I'm thinking the stock Lightning cam being more mellow than std. 5.8 cams has to do with the fact that the Lightning is a flat tappet cam from the factory. You are right, the Lightning cam specs are turd-ish. I have them around somewhere. Lightning's never came with roller. All but the early 93's are roller capable blocks, but the factory never installed a roller cam in the Lightning. Makes no sense at all to me given it was Ford's "Hot Rod Truck." Also, the stock Lightning is bank fire SD, again, makes no sense for a "Hot Rod" especially since the Mustang SEFI w/ roller cam had already been in play for 5+ years when the Lightning came out.

 

[mattt]

I would not recomend the trick flow cam with stock heads (even the GT heads)
Stock mustang cam or the crane 2020 grind should either be good.
Watch the valve lift, the stock valvetrain will not take that much. Also the stock springs will not take a radical cam profile.

Do you know the specs on the crane 2020? The Trick Flow Stage 1 is almost identical to the EFI cam that CompCams recommended. Both of these are just slightly bigger than the stock 5.0 HO cam. I was thinking of putting in new/different springs as these are at least 13 years old at this point.

Quite a few of the Mustang guys use the TFS-1 with GT heads or even the E7 Mustang heads which from what I've read are a step down from the GT's. One thing I'm considering is getting a set of GT40P's as the chambers are bit smaller helping keep the compression up vs. the larger chamber'd GT40's.

Keep the ideas flowing, I'm liking the bouncing of ideas.....

 

[mattt]

I would think the stock lightening cam would be good enough to get you to your torque numbers I wouldnt worry much about attaining the HP numbers. Or the other cams suggest but I wouldnt even consider the trick flow cam for a 4x4.
As for heads keep what you got the P heads are not worth the effort as you probably wont see any gain GT40 is GT40 same sized valves only a slight combustion chamber differance and that angled spark plug. I'd just freshen up what you got shouldnt cost much. Unless your looking for way bigger gains then you could go to aftermarket heads but you have decent heads already I'd stick to them in a 4x4.

I'll look again, but I think the P's have a slightly larger ex. valve, and apparently the flow/swirl pattern(whatever it's called) is a bit better stock out of the box on them. Since I'm thinking of new BC headers to top this all off, the P angle problem isn't an issue to me.

My original plan with the Lightning engine was to keep it 100% stock all the way down to the Lightning computer. However, I wasn't able to work out all the issues and since no one has apparently dropped in a stock Lightning, I didn't have any one with BTDT experience. That is what lead me down the MAF path with Mustang EEC. Since I'm swapping the front acc. that got me to thinking about cam change as I'm 90% there already. I've read at numerous places that the stock Lightning cam is more tailored to the stock SD bank fire system the truck came with.

 

[mattt]

I'm not 100% sure these #'s are accurate, but here are the stock Lightning cam specs & the stock 5.0HO cam specs

http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/gen-1-t...630-specks-351-lightning-cam-302-h-o-cam.html

 

[mattt]

TFS-1 cam & specs

http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS-51402000&autoview=sku

 

[mattt]

I think this was the Comp that was recommended by their tech line...

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Search/CamDetails.asp?PartNumber=35-310-8

 

[mattt]

Crane 2020?

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brow...-351 C.I.&partNumber=444211&partType=camshaft

 

[mattt]

Cam discussion has been great.....

Anything else I should consider upgrading/changing at the same time?

Is it a problem to not run the EGR, and completely remove it from the intake/TB?

 

[COBlu77]

Cam discussion has been great.....

Anything else I should consider upgrading/changing at the same time?

Is it a problem to not run the EGR, and completely remove it from the intake/TB?

I've run mine both ways and I haven't been able to tell the difference either way except it seems to run a little leaner (plugs are whiter) with the EGR eliminated using Ryans resistor plug. The whole idea of the EGR isn't a bad one and if you're going to have to deal with an emission test you might want it.

Back on the cam thing, my experience was that MAF can only adjust things so far with pre-set variables in the ECU. Throw in a non-stock cam and it will run, but not be as good as it can without some custom tuning. A roller cam will add another dimension for the A9P to handle.

Another forum that has the best info I've been able to get on Ford EFI, http://sbftech.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=207c946d0e424c11d23f4d7993b81455&board=20.0 "Joel5.0" is the guru.

 

[broncnaz]

The overlap really makes a differance between cams while 2 cams can have very similar specs if the overlap numbers are different its a whole different beast. One thing to remember is your building this engine for a truck not a mustang what works in one may not be suited for the other. Also look at your RPM ranges for the cams that really tells you where the power is going to be. If they dont start making power till 2000 rpm or more it will probably be doggy in a truck.
I just looked at all the specs on gt40 vs gt40P heads no real bif differance the P has smaller valves and combustion chamber but you could mill your standard gt40 heads to gain same compression increase, heres a good article on the subject but I still dont think its worth the effort for what your actually going to gain .http://stangpro.com/html/articles/gt40p_files/gt40p1.htm

 

[mattt]

I've run mine both ways and I haven't been able to tell the difference either way except it seems to run a little leaner (plugs are whiter) with the EGR eliminated using Ryans resistor plug. The whole idea of the EGR isn't a bad one and if you're going to have to deal with an emission test you might want it.

Back on the cam thing, my experience was that MAF can only adjust things so far with pre-set variables in the ECU. Throw in a non-stock cam and it will run, but not be as good as it can without some custom tuning. A roller cam will add another dimension for the A9P to handle.

Another forum that has the best info I've been able to get on Ford EFI, http://sbftech.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=207c946d0e424c11d23f4d7993b81455&board=20.0 "Joel5.0" is the guru.

What do you mean by "A roller cam will add another dimension for the A9P to handle.?" The A9P comes from a 90-91 Mustang 5.0 HO that came with a roller cam.

 

[COBlu77]

What do you mean by "A roller cam will add another dimension for the A9P to handle.?" The A9P comes from a 90-91 Mustang 5.0 HO that came with a roller cam.

Brain fart on that one. You're right. My point was that the ECU has programming tied to what is expected from the engine it came with and the cam is the most important aspect. The closer you stay to the Mustang 5.0 cam specs the better it will run, without wideband O2 sensors and custom programming.

 

[Ryan]

Just run a stock 5.0L roller cam, it has been a proven winner for lower RPM torque.

 

[mattt]

Thanks for weighing in here Ryan. In your responses in this thread.... http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6867 , are you mainly addressing cam choice for SD systems? I've spoken with a few people that are running the 5.0HO stock cam with the stock Lightning computer. They all say it is not too big of a jump for the stock SD system in the Lightning.

Are the CompCams I gave the link to, or the TFS-1 too much cam for the Mustang A9P in the Bronco with the Lightning engine? I'm not against running a stock 5.0HO cam, I just thought I could squeeze a bit more out of this 351 since I'm going MAF, and it's all GT40 components??? What are the shortcomings if I go with the TFS-1 or the Comp 35-310-8?

My original plan was to keep the Lightning package stock, all the way down to the computer. I've changed that plan but it's not installed yet. Is there a good reason to keep the L engine stock with stock wiring and EEC? I've got everything from the L so I could go that route.

In addition to swapping cams, I was thinking of running 24lb injectors and a 70mm(or larger) MAF. I have an X3Z ECU that should recognize and control that combo, however I've seen you do not like that ECU for some reason. Just seems like the stock Mustang 19lb & 55mm MAF would be choking off the larger 351?????? I'm exploring bigger cams because I'd like to wake this 351W up. I'm trying to get this thing to BREATHE and make respectable power. Is 300/300 too optimistic? Ford spec'd the stock L setup at 250/340 IIRC so I figured with a few good component choices I could improve upon that.....

Your insight is GREATLY appreciated as I'm trying to get this thing in and up and running in the next few months.

Mind making a recommendation on combo of cam, ECU, injectors, MAF, head/intake mods, headers, EGR(yes/no), Distributor(remote/mounted TFI)?