Pwr Strg pump output...which pump has the MOST gpm/psi?

[Yeller]

Speed with a ram is all about volume. There are pleanty of stock pumps that make enough volume and pressure but they have to be tweaked some to make it happen. As Brian said the fitting in the back or bottom of the pump must be drilled out to .188 and a smaller pulley installed to get the volume up, the only exception is some larger pumps don’t need the pulley, but they all need the fitting drilled out.

 

[nvrstuk]

Modifications are done...

Feedback on the inability to turn the strg wheel as quickly as desired when idling (only):

Hydroboost
Hyd assist ram
40" or larger tires aired down
totally locked front end


Upgrades to my steering system from what I was running last week:

Same CB style pump-
-output port on the pump drilled out to .188" (stock was less than .140")
-new bypass valve assembly designed for 1600psi (I pressure tested it 2 years ago at 1350psi)
-4.5" pulley to replace the original pulley at 5 875" dia (appr 23% speed increase)

This CB pump is designed for running at high rpms so my intent to run it at close to 6K for extended periods of time won't cause premature failure.

I replaced all 6AN braided lines to and from the pump and hydroboost since the ID of a 6AN braided line is almost a 1/16" smaller ID than a typical "rubber" coated .375" dia hose.

I replaced 2 - 90 degree fittings and replaced them with a hydraulic field serviceable fitting that has a sweep tube type fitting to keep restrictions to a minimum.

When sitting still at idle, I can definitely turn the strg wheel much faster w/o feeling like I am fighting against the pump filling the hydraulic ram cylinder...

I made a short video that I will link to YouTube so if someone is interested they can check out the mod's although they are pretty self explanatary.

 

[ntsqd]

Sounds like progress! How is the road feel?

You're driving it to Moab, right?

 

[nvrstuk]

Going to tow it down this trip...not as much fun but ...

Road feel is the same...not as much "feel" as I'd like. When I move the box forward 10" I will check into the possibility of a different torsion bar in the box...

More homework...

 

[ntsqd]

Baaaaawwwwk, bawk, bawk......

Teasing, I get it. As hard as you use the rig that's a long ways to figure out how to get a broken truck home from. Quinn's driving to the White Rim from home in a rig that still wasn't completely assembled & known to work fascinated me.

Just to muddy the water, some of the Toyota PS boxes have a vacuum switch on them. Those open with high turning effort and cause the idle speed to increase somehow, thereby bumping the PS pressure to make turning easier. The PS box that Quinn used on the Bronc-up has that switch, but it isn't plumbed to anything.

 

[nvrstuk]

Interesting on that Yoda ps box with the vacuum port...Quinn was out front with a lot of his ideas...

I had Garry program another Moates Qtrhorse tune to increase the idle speed switch to do the same -essentially.

I missed an inaugural 2200 mile dial it in as you go Rubicon run with Gary Y and Jim C last summer... missed a great "Manly Man" run. Gary always drives there and back. I was gone on a different trip but discovered a camber issue that would have ground off 20K miles off a 40" MTR I'm sure.

I can't get anybody else around here to "man up" and drive to Moab or Fordyce and back w/o a trailering ...

 

[nvrstuk]

Heres some interesting Saginaw numbers I found-thought I'd share.

My stock CB pump is supposed to be almost 1600 psi and btw 2.7gpm and 3.0.

I'm sure drilling it out (replacing the by-pass valve) increased the flow a tremdous amount as I noticed a huge difference.

Great little article explaining (after the fact) what I was experiencing.

 

[ntsqd]

Thanks for those pages, I saved them for future ref.

I don't think Quinn ever used it, I see no evidence of that, but it is interesting. Even if only in the abstract.

For the drive-it-there-&-back trips, just do it. I'll say it up front, I'm a worry-wort. Most of the time I start out on one of these annual Nevada trips (that end up being 1500-2500 miles depending) I'm not fully convinced my vehicle is up for it. I know that I've covered all of the knowns and the "that looks like trouble in the future"s, but there's always the stuff that rears its head on the trip. I like to have a couple hundred miles on mods before I leave. I don't always get that.

Make ya a deal, trailer it to here in Upper SoCA and then we'll drive it out and run the Mojave Rd. or tour DV's back-roads or something.

 

[68ford]

So after reading this thread and some other "Saginaw mods" I tore mine apart. The outlet fitting was already 5/32, largest factory orificed. Since I have an extra, I figured let's try 1 size bigger than .188 and drilled it an even .200 and chamfered the edge inside. I also found on the pressure relief valve the nut was not fully seat and had no washers making it the 2nd highest psi out of 4 factory options. Tightened the nut down to make it make full pressure which should be around 1200 from what I read. 3rd, the long soft spring I stretched to 2.250 per sever pages I found all recommending this. Not exactly sure what that does exactly. What a night and day difference. Easy but still has road feel. When not moving and at idle 1000rpm, it still slightly above average as far as effort to turn, but much closer to a normal car. Appears to be able to keep up flow demands and turn fast however until I get to the track or desert and do some fast s turns with counter steering I won't know for sure. So far huge improvement. Above average stiffness while not moving may have something to do with 12 degrees of caster at ride height not sure?

 

[nvrstuk]

Glad the mod's have passed the "on-road" part of the test Wayne! I'm at 8deg caster but don't have the "road feel"... I notice it every trip so far... very sensitive. Symptoms sound similar to what all the R & P guys complain about when the run a pump like my stock CB pump puts out too much pressure and flow for the rack...makes strg hyper-sensitive. Not sure mine is like that but it's going to take some getting used to... might have to play with suspension to see if there's anything I can do for oversteer... not terrible but different than the last 250,000 miles for sure.

TS, you know I'll probably stop by... Be fun to have the local tour! Agreed about never quite feeling like everything is done and/or ready for a long trip... I'm not into roadside repairs but have done a couple over my Bronco's 250,000 mile plus life.

Probably put about another 100 on today with short trips....I haven't pulled the cores with the hubs locked like last week (packing for Moab), but I'm sure it will be even easier to turn...

 

[ntsqd]

B, what would happen if you dialed the pressure back a little? Not sure how easy that might be to do. I know at one time there were PS pressure regulators sold in the hot rod world to address that exact problem, a Saginaw worm & sector PS pump used on a R&P. Don't recall if those were adjustable and don't know if they were if they'd have enough adjustment range.

My own goal is to drive the Bronc-up to next year's WH Spring Event w/o going deaf or numb. So if you show up before then I'll probably have to drive the 4rnnr.

 

[68ford]

So after my above mods and about 300 miles I can say it's better in every aspect. No negative affect. I do notice I can hear slight pump noise when above 3000 rpm. I'm not going to call it whine, it's more like regular hyd pump pressure/load noise just elevated. Assuming it's nature of the beast since upping the pressure a few hundred psi and increasing flow. I guess time will tell if I created an issue by increasing pressure and flow.

 

[68ford]

So after a month now I can say that the mods done to the pump made everything better aside from I believe a little more heat. Only seems to run warmer after long trips on the freeway at 3000 to 3200(55 mph unfortunately haha)
My question is if my pump, that is turning the same RPM as before on the freeway with no real load on it, is no longer pumping fluid through a small orifice in the pump outlet fitting, I don't see how it is making more heat. Also keep in mind I'm goin off touching my 1 gallon reservoir after a long drive. Not sure I ever did that before on a long drive. I assume it's running warmer because after a 2 hour drive getting off the freeway it is noticeably stiffer at idle compared to cold. 30min drive seems to have no affect on it. When the pump was stock I could drive it 2 to 3 hours and hot felt the same as cold. It was also always stiff before modifying the piston and orifice regardless of temp or RPM. Just seems that the flow limiting orifice would have made more heat when the system pressure is low and it is only circulating flow from high RPM.

 

[garberz]

So after a month now I can say that the mods done to the pump made everything better aside from I believe a little more heat. Only seems to run warmer after long trips on the freeway at 3000 to 3200(55 mph unfortunately haha)
My question is if my pump, that is turning the same RPM as before on the freeway with no real load on it, is no longer pumping fluid through a small orifice in the pump outlet fitting, I don't see how it is making more heat. Also keep in mind I'm goin off touching my 1 gallon reservoir after a long drive. Not sure I ever did that before on a long drive. I assume it's running warmer because after a 2 hour drive getting off the freeway it is noticeably stiffer at idle compared to cold. 30min drive seems to have no affect on it. When the pump was stock I could drive it 2 to 3 hours and hot felt the same as cold. It was also always stiff before modifying the piston and orifice regardless of temp or RPM. Just seems that the flow limiting orifice would have made more heat when the system pressure is low and it is only circulating flow from high RPM.

It’s flowing more GPM, and bypassing more fluid that it’s not using. That’s what’s making more heat.

Mark

 

[68ford]

It’s flowing more GPM, and bypassing more fluid that it’s not using. That’s what’s making more heat.

Mark

I guess I do not understand what about flowing more fluid when just going down the freeway makes more heat? The reason it's flowing more is I lessened a restriction. I would have thought not forcing all the fluid through the small orifice/hole would have lowered system pressure when no demand from steering box and at least not made it warmer. Is the bypassing your describing taking place at the steering box?

 

[ntsqd]

With no significant steering the spool valve in the box is just sending the fluid back to the reservoir. There is some restriction in those ports and if you're now flowing more fluid thru them.......
How big is your PS fluid cooler? Seems like it's falling down on the job.

 

[68ford]

With no significant steering the spool valve in the box is just sending the fluid back to the reservoir. There is some restriction in those ports and if you're now flowing more fluid thru them.......
How big is your PS fluid cooler? Seems like it's falling down on the job.

No cooler, just a 1 gallon alloy reservoir that get air flow from trans cooler and side of trans cooler from the grill opening.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwk7t2WAoYV/?igshid=zks8lp25nboc

 

[ntsqd]

With that much oil volume its no wonder that you're seeing a delay in temps. It would take a while to get the whole oil volume up in temperature. Not nearly enough surface area on the reservoir for effective primary cooling. I'd be looking at a Setrab or Mocal stacked plate oil cooler for the return line.

I also prefer round PS reservoirs with tangential return(s). Much like how a dry sump oil tank works, the PS reservoir should have features designed to encourage any entrained air to be removed from the fluid.

 

[68ford]

Can you explain tangential returns? The return definitely is a stead stream shooting across inside from one side blasting against the other vertical wall.
I can easily add a cooler and most likely will.
Just questioning the removal of the small orifice increasing the temp.
Probably should have drilled it .188 like I read and not .200. I have a spare valve/orifice that's why I tried it. Aside from long trip heat, it's awesome. Probably if I did not run 3200rpm on the freeway for multiple hours I may never have it seem warm hahaha

 

[ntsqd]

This model is of a swirl pot for a cooling system, but the premise is the same. Image isn't great, but maybe it will work.

Note how the upper 3 bungs are not square on the pot body while the lower bung is, they are offset to the far side far enough that the ID of the bung is tangent to the ID of the pot. That is to say that the transition from the ID of the bung to the inside wall of the pot is smooth, no step in either direction.
By swirling the fluid around the interior wall of the tank the air can escape while the fluid slows down and drops into the reservoir without splashing and possibly entraining more air.