Rebuilt engine only idling at 40 degrees advanced (new question 8/19)

[joshua]

All I did was break the cam in. It was running rich when I broke it on the run stand. I just timed it with a vacuum gauge then. And I could only get about 13 14 psi of vacuum. But it’s putting out a ton of white smoke and reeks of gas. I tried 3 different timing lights on it and it only runs decent at like 30 to 40 degrees advanced.
Tdc was checked several times. Timing cover was pulled and the dots lined up.
It also is pretty choppy at any degree of timing. I do not have the vacuum advance hooked up. It is plugged on the carb. All the spark plugs are black now. It has had 2 different brand new carbs on. The marine one it came with, which I used to break the cam in on the run stand and now a new avs2. Same results.

I didn’t have anything to with the rebuild of this motor. It is a marine engine. The guy who had it built died shortly afterwards in a motorcycle accident. His adult children were not mechanical inclined and had no receipts or literature on it. I did try looking up the cam and heads online and found nothing.

Brand new avs 2, brand new Pertronix 2 distributor. And it was definitely rebuilt, I added a picture of when I first got and what I found when I pulled a valve cover. I paid next to nothing for this so it’s not the end of the world if it’s hot garbage, but it’s in my bronco and summer is cruising by. So would be nice to try and figure it out.

Also I did a comparison test. And a couple of holes were at like 110 but I only have like an hour of run time on it. So I’m hoping it comes back around.

 

[bronco italiano]

How about taking to a mechanic that deals with these motors? If you ran rich at break in you may have e fuel washed the cylinders

 

[joshua]

How about taking to a mechanic that deals with these motors? If you ran rich at break in you may have e fuel washed the cylinders

I would rather figure it out and bug you guys. lol. This is how I get better. I did have an afr hooked up during break in. It wasn’t that far off. I think I’m just going to yank it out and pull it apart and inspect it. I really do think something is way off. They had said that their mom said it had been a couple years since he took it the machine shop, and my borescope
was pretty crappy at the time.

I have a running 302 in a 96 explorer I may try and carb. Maybe throw these heads on with the correct springs and rods.

Thanks!

 

[Broncobowsher]

Mix of harmonic dampers and timing pointers. For had the wisdom to make 3 common (and a 4th very unusual) timing pointer locations.

Since you have the engine out from the looks of it, remove the bolt holding the damper to the front of the crank. Turn the crank until the keyway is straight up. I bet the timing pointer is way off

That looks like an old marine engine. Not as old as my Interceptor small block, but still and older one. And the (need to go look at mine again) Motorola(?) marine alternator. Which Ford was using on marine engines years before they made there own alternator design for passenger cars.

 

[73azbronco]

"They had said that their mom said it had been a couple years"

Yeah, no way on the timing. Something is not right. My vote Your timing marks are messed up. Slipped harmonic on the shaft, wrong harmonic, wrong pointer location, etc But that should be easy to verify with zero on TDC number 1. Did you pull timing cover, verify cam and crank aligned at TDC?

White smoke is blown headgasket, condensation if it goes away, oil blowby. Is it using/losing coolant?

Black plugs is rich.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Keyway straight up is dot straight up on the crank gear. That is real TDC. I mention that as it is an easy check without having to break the seal and get into the engine. And if you need to get into the engine, it has to come off anyway.

 

[ntsqd]

Could be as simple as the ring on the balancer has slipped, resulting in an error about where TDC is. Damper Dudes can rebuild it, but they may prefer to do it as an exchange. Talk to them before you pull it to send off for repair or order a replacement.

Another way to verify TDC is the piston stop method. The angle of the plugs in SBF heads makes using a spark-plug based piston stop a bit tough, but it can be done. Take an old plug and gut it of all of the ceramic. Weld a fine thread nut into it. Put a full diameter radius on the end of a matching fine thread bolt. Adjust the bolt in or out until the piston bumps against it as close to the top of the stroke as you can reliably get. Due to that angle it is possible to go right past the stop-bolt without feeling it.
Just want to be careful to not bang the piston into the stop. Pull ALL of the plugs! Gently spin the crank one direction until you bump into the stop. Mark the balancer where the timing pointer is indicating. Gently spin it the other direction until you bump again. Mark the balancer again. TDC is halfway between your two marks. I use a tailor's tape to measure around curves in situations like this.

 

[Quick & Dirty]

Could also be the distributor is installed out of sequence. Typically, 180° out, to exhaust TDC instead of compression. I've done that before. The engine would run, but not well. Way out on timing and would die with any timing adjustment. Pulled the distributor and started over with finding TDC, reinstalled and it ran like it should.

 

[73azbronco]

Could be as simple as the ring on the balancer has slipped, resulting in an error about where TDC is. Damper Dudes can rebuild it, but they may prefer to do it as an exchange. Talk to them before you pull it to send off for repair or order a replacement.

Another way to verify TDC is the piston stop method. The angle of the plugs in SBF heads makes using a spark-plug based piston stop a bit tough, but it can be done. Take an old plug and gut it of all of the ceramic. Weld a fine thread nut into it. Put a full diameter radius on the end of a matching fine thread bolt. Adjust the bolt in or out until the piston bumps against it as close to the top of the stroke as you can reliably get. Due to that angle it is possible to go right past the stop-bolt without feeling it.
Just want to be careful to not bang the piston into the stop. Pull ALL of the plugs! Gently spin the crank one direction until you bump into the stop. Mark the balancer where the timing pointer is indicating. Gently spin it the other direction until you bump again. Mark the balancer again. TDC is halfway between your two marks. I use a tailor's tape to measure around curves in situations like this.

I just use a pencil with eraser, eraser in first.

 

[pcf_mark]

This sounds like a strange one for sure. Broncobowsher identifed where to start - look at the keyway in the crank to know TDC #1. Slip the balancer back on and the line should be near zero on the pointer. If it is 180 degrees away crank it around another turn you are TDC on #1. For Ford number one is front right and the distributor turns counter clockwise when going through the firing order. If you get the direction wrong it will run, sound like a raspy cam, vacuum gage needle will jump around. It is also possible it has a marine cam that is reverse rotation which would toss the firing order out the window check to see if it is cast in the intake manifold. You could take off the valve covers with it at TDC #1 then crank it 90 degrees and see which cylinder is next with both valves closed. Or you could have a later 5.0 firing order camshaft - follow the valves to see the actual order to know.

It is possible to have 40 degrees at idle too. If you had 16 initial and vac advance hooked to manifold vacuum you can see 26-30 for sure but you did say vac adv disconnected. Just saying 40 could be possible and cause the stink.

Ignore the smoke for now it is almost certainly late or miss timed spark or valve events. Once that is sorted it will be easier to diagnose.

 

[Broncobowsher]

You don't even have to pull the balancer. Just the bolt. The keyway in the damper goes all the way through, You can see it once the washer under the bolt is removed.

 

[joshua]

"They had said that their mom said it had been a couple years"

Yeah, no way on the timing. Something is not right. My vote Your timing marks are messed up. Slipped harmonic on the shaft, wrong harmonic, wrong pointer location, etc But that should be easy to verify with zero on TDC number 1. Did you pull timing cover, verify cam and crank aligned at TDC?

White smoke is blown headgasket, condensation if it goes away, oil blowby. Is it using/losing coolant?

Black plugs is rich.

as I wrote, tdc lines up with the zero. Timing chain dots are lined up. Something idk what is off here. And the top of this motor was without a doubt all new. But maybe the bottom was not. Idk if it just has a hog cam or what’s going on. I can not find anything off the numbers stamped on it. I put a new dampener on it, the correct weight. The front dress is now explorer, except the dampener, as I read the would create an imbalance.

 

[joshua]

Could also be the distributor is installed out of sequence. Typically, 180° out, to exhaust TDC instead of compression. I've done that before. The engine would run, but not well. Way out on timing and would die with any timing adjustment. Pulled the distributor and started over with finding TDC, reinstalled and it ran like it should.

I did check it several times.

 

[ntsqd]

Silly question, but you are driving the timing light with the correct plug wire?

What I'd do next is spin the crank around manually until the timing pointer is pointing at, let's say, 10° BTDC. Pop the distributor cap off and look at where the rotor is pointing. Is it pointing at a cylinder's terminal or between two of them? IF at one or nearly so, which cylinder is it?
Next look at the points, where are they on the breaker point cam? Just about to open, already open, or in the middle between two of the high points on the cam.

 

[joshua]

I verified tdc by putting a leak down tester on cylinder 1 Turned the crank by hand until it got a bump in pressure. Then with my camera turned it slowly until the piston was 3/4 the way up. I then take a 3/8s extension and put it down the spark plug hole. And slowly turn until it stops poking out and reaches its dwell. I then check with my camera and timing chain gears. Then left it at tdc. Put the cover, pulley and pointer on. All lined up.

 

[Quick & Dirty]

With the piston at TDC of compression stroke, pull the distributor cap and check if the rotor is aimed at #1 plug wire post.

 

[joshua]

I think the cylinders are just in poor shape

I did pressure test the cooling system and it passed

 

[joshua]

With the piston at TDC of compression stroke, pull the distributor cap and check if the rotor is aimed at #1 plug wire post.

I just did this for s and gs. Definitely a good idea, but it looks correct

 

[bronco italiano]

I think the cylinders are just in poor shape

I did pressure test the cooling system and it passed

Leak down?

 

[joshua]

Leak down?

I’m sorry, pressure test on the cooling system. I thought I wrote that. I was just ruling out head gaskets or cracked block. No, the compression test yielded numbers today as low as 105 I had hoped the rings just had not seated yet. But after looking at those cylinder walls with a good scope shows they are shiny, and have rust pits I think.

I’m thinking he just put new aluminum heads on an old boat motor. I didn’t pay much for it. So I’m only crushed in sense summer is almost over here in Minnesota and now I’m scrambling to either find a short block or to try this 302 in an explorer I have. I thought about trying to do the ball hone and new rings to get me through the summer. But that’s a lot of work for that gamble.