?Reverse C bushing will it fix this?

[jamesroney]

Here you go Paul! View attachment 922656

Wow. @Hallboss Still sporting those drum brakes! Here's my low pinion 44 with 3.5 lift, and 7 degrees of caster. At full droop, it still binds the double CV at the t-case. I think I cut and turned this one 10 degrees, but don't remember. Now I just add 7.

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks for the pic Hallboss. As James was alluding, your angles are pretty extreme. As expected.
Not a problem for 2wd street driving, but if you ever try to use four-wheel-drive, especially in high range on the street, you will probably have a pretty good vibration.
And if you do plan to take it off roading, your wheel travel in the front is severely limited by the U-joints. Possibly even resulting in damage to the shaft or other things.
So be mindful of that when you are deciding whether or not to put it in four-wheel-drive.
Or not…

As a cursory, but not entirely conclusive test, you can simply spin the shaft by hand and see if you’re feeling any “cogging” as it spins. If you do, then it’s already passed its extreme normal working angle.

This is basically the problem with using the otherwise tried and true bushing replacement to regain caster. It’s at the expense of pinion angle.
James mentioned cutting and turning, or turning the knuckles, or “C’s“ as they are often called.
That’s the only way to maintain both caster and pinion angle when working with these radius arms suspensions.

 

[Hallboss]

Thanks for the pic Hallboss. As James was alluding, your angles are pretty extreme. As expected.
Not a problem for 2wd street driving, but if you ever try to use four-wheel-drive, especially in high range on the street, you will probably have a pretty good vibration.
And if you do plan to take it off roading, your wheel travel in the front is severely limited by the U-joints. Possibly even resulting in damage to the shaft or other things.
So be mindful of that when you are deciding whether or not to put it in four-wheel-drive.
Or not…

As a cursory, but not entirely conclusive test, you can simply spin the shaft by hand and see if you’re feeling any “cogging” as it spins. If you do, then it’s already passed its extreme normal working angle.

This is basically the problem with using the otherwise tried and true bushing replacement to regain caster. It’s at the expense of pinion angle.
James mentioned cutting and turning, or turning the knuckles, or “C’s“ as they are often called.
That’s the only way to maintain both caster and pinion angle when working with these radius arms suspensions.

Yes sir! I know it’s not good. How I purchased it, almost a year ago, knowing things needed to be corrected. I wheeled it this winter prior to the 7 degree C bushing install. Vibration was very noticeable in 4H on the road. Didn’t screw anything up in 4L off-road and didn’t notice issues. I can say there seems to be less binding with the new bushings though (??), but still noticeable. Mostly helped with the road drivability with caster. Less road drift at speed. Just a good example of cause and effect when doing the 5.5” lift.

@jamesroney - will most likely do what you suggest later. The disc brake conversion is on the list also, the list is long! Nothing too severe yet for wheeling. Probably identifies as a mall crawler right now…

Work in progress, but love wrenching on it.

@Geiri Didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Just happy with the Duff C-bushings after install.

 

[Geiri]

@Geiri Didn’t mean to hijack your thread. Just happy with the Duff C-bushings after install.

Feel free to hijack
I am learning a lot from this thread, you all have been super helpful

 

[Geiri]

Things are looking a lot better now after you advice.

I got the frame in the correct Hight on timber blocks and installed the black 7° bushings. I liked the build of them better
The engine is pretty level. Question is how much can I lower it in the back before it hits the body. To get better front and rear driveshaft angel?
I will have 2" or 3" body lift

I can now see the caster degree. The coil spring seat is almost level

I am not sure how accurate this is..

The Np205 is sitting a bit to high don't you think?

Driveshaft mockup. Angles looks ok

 

[DirtDonk]

Seems like lowering the rear might help the rear driveshaft angles, but hurt the front?
Yes, lowering it would help in theory, but at the same time you are increasing the upward angle of the front output yoke of the transfer case. Possibly navigating any benefit of the lowering.

I have no idea how far down you can go before hitting the body, but a body lift may not make any difference at all. And also, since the body is slightly movable on its mounts, I think the only way to tell is for you to put the body on.

 

[Geiri]

Thank you @DirtDonk you are helpful as always.
After thinking it through, I gain many things with lifting the body on.
Shock tower location for one. So that will be the next step

 

[jamesroney]

Things are looking a lot better now after you advice.

I got the frame in the correct Hight on timber blocks and installed the black 7° bushings. I liked the build of them better
The engine is pretty level. Question is how much can I lower it in the back before it hits the body. To get better front and rear driveshaft angel?
I will have 2" or 3" body lift


I can now see the caster degree. The coil spring seat is almost level

I am not sure how accurate this is..

The Np205 is sitting a bit to high don't you think?

I don't like this. Please remove the castle nut on the upper ball joint, and measure caster on the machined face of the inner knuckle "C". Compare that number to your 9 degree number. I have never used the outer knuckle for the measurement, so I don't know if it is exactly accurate. You will know the relative difference when you check against the knuckle.

It is impossible for me to know if the NP205 is too high. So if you take a straight edge, and measure from the output shaft centerline to the bottom of the frame, them I can tell you the answer. The engine does not sit in the frame at level. It is usually 5(?) degrees angle. (I can't remember exactly, but I can measure one tomorrow in the workshop.)

I think with the V8-configuration, that you can drop the NP205 many inches and the engine never contacts the body.

So:
Step 1, set suspension at design height. (DONE!)
Step 2, set caster at 7 degrees positive.
Step 2A, Establish steering tie rod location (high steer, low steer, etc)
Step 2B, Establish track bar location and angle, including lowering brackets, raising brackets, etc.
Step 2C, Establish drag link location and angle, including pitman arm and steering box location.
Step 2D, Verify range of motion with front axle while coils are not installed. Go up, down, and fully left and right. Take note of pitman arm to tie rod interference. Take note of track bar bracket to tie rod interference. Ensure track bar and drag link are parallel, and as long as possible. (Usually with TRO and track bar frame bracket, this is important.)
Step 3, set engine angle / build crossmember.
Step 3A, (optional, but I always do it...) Measure front driveshaft angle. Cut and turn knuckles to achieve 0 degree delta. Question your choice of a cast wedge D44 at this step, and acquiesce to your poor choice of axle. Understand that caster is more important than u-joint wear. But this will be your first necessary compromise)
Step 4. set rear axle pinion inclination.
Step 4a. (optional) question your choice of 9 inch rear axle. The combination of low pinion, long transmission, long adapter, and long NP205 will push the rear driveshaft to a very short length. Perhaps too short for your choice of CV joint? If your rear driveshaft angle is too steep, go back to step 3. At 3.5 inch lift, you are near the limit of the 1310CV max operating angle. So do this immediately.
Step 5. Measure carefully for driveshafts. Order driveshafts.
Step 6, resume construction and re-install suspension.
Step 7, install shock absorber frame mounts. (add additional mounts for future use if desired.)
Step 8, (optional) remove everything, and send frame for media blast and powdercoat.
Step 9, install body.

Don't be discouraged. You will find your optimum location. It will all fit, and work.

 

[jamesroney]

OH, now I see Iceland. I will make the measurement today. Pics will follow.
My stock 67 Bronco with 6 Cyl has 4 degrees angle downwards to the frame.

So the picture you see is the frame reference angle, on the flat part of the frame near the transfer case skid plate. In my case, it is angled down 2 degrees.
Second picture shows transfer case angle, at 6 degrees. So the engine is angled down 2 degrees compared to the frame. I did not measure with my timber blocks, so the measurement is relative. But it should be sufficient.

James.

 

[Geiri]

OH, now I see Iceland. I will make the measurement today. Pics will follow.
My stock 67 Bronco with 6 Cyl has 4 degrees angle downwards to the frame.


James.

Yes, I am in Iceland.
I have lot's of history with Broncos. But never actually gone this way. I guess I did not think about caster and pinion angle back in the day's
after about 30 years of pause from the Broncos I picked up a few here
Now that the planet is almost as one shopping center parts are easy to get.
This one is One of two I am restoring now. I have 4 in total.
Link to my Garage on this site