Seized Oil Pump, 302

[DJs74]

Thinking a little more about this... the other elephant in the room here is so to speak is: where did all oil go? If I understand this correctly, when the trip started - there was obviously oil pressure and no engine noise which one would assume there was ample oil in there and the pump was working.. then, it was noticed that the oil pressure went to zero and the engine started making noise (or visa versa) and when the oil level was checked, no oil showing on the stick.

Were there any obvious leaks or any smoking through the exhaust or anything that would indicate a loss of oil? Do you recall what the oil pressure was when all was well?

I guess its possible that the oil level was just low prior to starting the trip home and then the pump quit which led to engine noise and no pressure registering on the gauge but I'm just wondering what the heck happened to the oil and why it was low (leak or is the engine burning the oil??)

At the end of the day and regardless of what others think, you'll have to proceed and approach this based on your own instincts - but considering all that's happened and all the unknowns and you obviously wanting to use the Bronco as a daily driver - I think the motor needs a thorough evaluation just for your own piece of mind. Otherwise, every time you jump behind the wheel, you'll be wondering what happened on that drive home and if its going to happen again - I know I would!

Keep us posted, good luck and most importantly - congratulations on the purchase of your EB

DJs74

 

[Swath]

Thinking a little more about this... the other elephant in the room here is so to speak is: where did all oil go? If I understand this correctly, when the trip started - there was obviously oil pressure and no engine noise which one would assume there was ample oil in there and the pump was working.. then, it was noticed that the oil pressure went to zero and the engine started making noise (or visa versa) and when the oil level was checked, no oil showing on the stick.

Were there any obvious leaks or any smoking through the exhaust or anything that would indicate a loss of oil? Do you recall what the oil pressure was when all was well?

I guess its possible that the oil level was just low prior to starting the trip home and then the pump quit which led to engine noise and no pressure registering on the gauge but I'm just wondering what the heck happened to the oil and why it was low (leak or is the engine burning the oil??)

I will find out more Sunday. When I started it up the first time while checking it out, there was a rather loud tick, PO shrugged and said he never noticed. In hindsight it sounded like low oil noise I have heard before. I should have pulled the dipstick right there. First mistake. I test drove it and it ran very nicely, ran it down the highway and all seemed fine. When the pressure dropped I didn't immediately notice the noise but when I passed alongside a guard rail I could hear the difference. You know how the noise reflects back better when passing guard rails and walls and such. It was not a great place to pull over in traffic and as soon as I could get to a pull off spot I did so.

I am befuddled by the oil myself but have not looked further. At that time I checked the dipstick but it didn't look like there was anything showing on the dipstick at all. (head scratch) My assumption was the oil level dropped below the pickup and ran dry. I had to run off to get some oil, the wife stayed with the Bronco. I dumped two quarts in and checked the dipstick again but the level was still not definitive, it seemed too clean and I could not see a line on the dipstick but there was oil on it. I have never had a problem seeing oil on a dipstick, this was puzzling. If it was really that low, then two quarts should have brought it back up to the oil pump suction. I was a little concerned that I was overfilling it now. I started it up, noise was the same, decided to drive it home the last 7 miles or so. mistake 2? Most likely the damage was done, yes, I probably made it worse but the amount of noise never increased and the engine temp never rose. First step this Sunday will be to drain the pan and see how much oil is still in it. I might actually have some time Saturday morning or take Friday off and get started early. Regardless of the PIA factor I'm excited to dive in and get to the bottom of it. I haven't had a new toy to be excited about in quite a while.

At the end of the day and regardless of what others think, you'll have to proceed and approach this based on your own instincts - but considering all that's happened and all the unknowns and you obviously wanting to use the Bronco as a daily driver - I think the motor needs a thorough evaluation just for your own piece of mind. Otherwise, every time you jump behind the wheel, you'll be wondering what happened on that drive home and if its going to happen again - I know I would!

Keep us posted, good luck and most importantly - congratulations on the purchase of your EB

DJs74

Excellent points, this is all still very new to me. Taking all the feedback into consideration I will dive in and let my research lead my decisions. Sunday I am going in to evaluate everything myself.

This morning I will go to the shop and have a face to face discussion with the mechanic and look at the distributor, drag it home this evening, and begin work Sunday. My observations will guide me to the next steps but most likely I will pull the motor and pay a shop to go through it. As I said earlier, I do not want to make this my first full engine rebuild project, I know my limits and there are skills and experience I don't have.

Like I say, one step at a time.

Get it home, pull the pan, look at the pump, check for metals under valve covers and in oil pan, probably pop a bearing cap or two.

The dizzy gear condition will tell me if the cam definately needs to be swapped and at that point go through it all.

 

[Teal68]

Swath,
IMO, you are getting great advice from many.

That said, there would be no harm in removing the oil pan, remove the pump, and check it out. Take it apart and see what locked it up. See what kind of particles are in the bottom of the oil pan when you remove it, and pull the bearing caps to what got spun around in the bearings. At this point you could learn a lot about what happened at no significant cost if you need to pull the motor. At least you educated yourself!

If you find no significant damage and want to proceed with oil an oil pump replacement I'd have to caution that there could be other loose pieces of metal in oil passages in the motor just waiting to do the same thing to you again.

The dizzy gear shavings may have been due to the stress of the oil pump locking up. If not, you need to make sure the cam and dizzy gears are compatible. You mentioned a bronze gear several times. Do not use a Bronze gear! You will either need steel or cast iron depending on your cam.

Keep us post,
Tyler

EDIT: You beat me to my own advice!

Note: You may have to jack the bronco up by the frame to create enough room between the axle and motor to pull the pan.

 

[Swath]

Here's another way to look at it:

How much is this rig worth without a motor? $1000 worth of front end work with receipts from April, brand new 32x11.50 BGF ATs, nice sony stereo, CB radio, some rust but not real bad, a crinkled fender and door (looks like it slid along a tree or rock off road). Straight replacement fender and door came with it. Hood is bad, somebody tried to fix it with putty??? On a hood! really? Now, consider it has a core 302 with modern electronics, edelbrock intake, headers, holley. I will post a few pics but bottom like is, it was still worth what I paid, just not as good of a deal. So I'm set back $2-3k more, still worth it? (I paid $4,500)

I bet I could list it and get what I paid even with the motor like it is.

Not the end of the world, mistakes were made but I can survive them and have some fun getting it back up and running.

IT'S A OLD SCHOOL BRONCO and it's mine, yee haw.....

 

[Swath]

That said, there would be no harm in removing the oil pan, remove the pump, and check it out. Take it apart and see what locked it up. See what kind of particles are in the bottom of the oil pan when you remove it, and pull the bearing caps to what got spun around in the bearings. At this point you could learn a lot about what happened at no significant cost if you need to pull the motor. At least you educated yourself!

Agreed.

The dizzy gear shavings may have been due to the stress of the oil pump locking up. If not, you need to make sure the cam and dizzy gears are compatible. You mentioned a bronze gear several times. Do not use a Bronze gear! You will either need steel or cast iron depending on your cam.

Just a good racer mechanic view point I and repeating, I was told that was a mod the racers did when the put hi volume oil pumps in to keep em healthy. They had failures until they figured this out. The big thing was increasing lubrication to the gears but a stronger shaft and those gears were part of their fix if you will.

Keep us post,
Tyler

Will do. Thanks to everyone for their input, the saga continues...

 

[PaveBronco]

Welcome and sorry for your bad situation, sounds like a shady PO, but also sounds like you got a good deal on the price.
My two cents is…it’s a good time to do a EFI 5.0 swap.

 

[Swath]

Welcome and sorry for your bad situation, sounds like a shady PO, but also sounds like you got a good deal on the price.
My two cents is…it’s a good time to do a EFI 5.0 swap.

I know it looks like I got hoodwinked by the PO but I believe him. He really is one of those folks that is not mechanical at all. He had the door and fender since he bought it and never put them on. He drove just for fun with the top off and didn't wheel it much.

Bottom line is, we talked a lot before and after, and I believe him. A look straight in the eyes and a good handshake goes a long way with me.

I spoke with a friendly gal at the reputable shop the reciepts came from and that confirmed a lot of what he told me. It is just my bad luck and I accept that.

 

[Lunar-tic]

Here is what happened to me, I mean a friend of mine. He bought a new turn-key crate motor that came with a car oil pan, so he picked up a used Bronco oil pan and pickup tube from a buddy. The pan was easy to clean, but the pickup tube took a little more work, "he" thought he cleaned it thoroughly. Installed everything, broke in the engine, all was running well. Then one day on the way home the engine began making an awful racket (lifters rattling) and the oil pressure went south. He was less than a mile from home so he drove it on. Turns out that a small piece of what appeared to be plastic got sucked up into the oil pump. The pump seized and sheared off the shaft below the dizzy. Nothing else was damaged; he pulled the motor and checked everything. The only damage was the broken shaft. I stopped being a tight-wad and bought a new pickup tube and heavy duty pump shaft. Luckily the engine still runs like a champ, no apparent long-term damage, but I only drove it for a couple minutes after the failure. I could see your pump ingesting something due to the last visit to the shop, but that doesn’t explain the low oil level. I would pull it and check everything over and at a minimum replace whatever broke in the oil pump/dizzy area and also get a new pickup tube for good measure. Odds are something got past it somehow.

 

[Swath]

I just had a better conversation with the mechanic that looked at it yesterday.

It was his analysis that the bottom of the dizzy (hex fitting where the pump drive goes in) stripped out when the pump failed. He did not see any sign of gear mesh failure. They tried to turn the oil pump but it would not turn? That is the part that is weird, they acted like it froze. I don't see how that would have run very long at all without the oil pump turning at all. Seems like it would have seized the entire motor and also overheated.

All this guessing, I have to stop, go in a have a look and go from there.

I know my initial posts are based on incomplete data, I should have waited until I had a definitive problem identified.

I have learned a few important things though, for one I should be able to drop the oil pan without removing the engine. From there a good look at things will paint a more clear picture.

I am not 100% sure on the oil level, I could have been all screwed up, draining out what is left will tell me something also.

 

[Lunar-tic]

My pump shaft broke at the end going into the dizzy. The dizzy still worked and so did the engine. That being said, an engine will run a long time without oil pressure before it craps out. The question for you is what made its way into the pump to lock it up and how much damage was done to the engine. The tollerances in the oil pump are tight, so any little thing can lock it up. It also sounds like you drove it for a while without oil pressure, I would check the bearings based on that info just to save yourself another engine pull.

 

[Swath]

My pump shaft broke at the end going into the dizzy. The dizzy still worked and so did the engine. That being said, an engine will run a long time without oil pressure before it craps out. The question for you is what made its way into the pump to lock it up and how much damage was done to the engine. The tollerances in the oil pump are tight, so any little thing can lock it up. It also sounds like you drove it for a while without oil pressure, I would check the bearings based on that info just to save yourself another engine pull.

That is my plan for Sunday, drop the pan inspect the oil pump and a bearing or two or three...

 

[rastiss]

Timing gear with Teflon teeth coming apart?

 

[broncnaz]

You'd be suprised at how long a engine can run sometimes with no oil pressure. They dont seize up right then and there unless the bearing clearances are real tight or your putting a lot of stress on the engine and build enough heat to seize things up. Of course on the flip side just because it didnt sieze doesnt mean theres no damage.
A lot of old engines didnt have oil pumps some used little more than dippers to feed some oil to the crank heck they didnt even have oil filters. Many of them lasted a very long time and still run today

 

[savage]

Hey ,I was driving a 2012 Volvo tractor with 48,000 pounds of product, and the service mechanic forgot to tighten the oil plug after changing the oil. You know what's next. I was pulling hard up hill when it came loose and dump 16 plus quarts of oil. Toed back to shop ,put oil in and its still running with 748,455 miles on it.So you never no how hurt the motor is or not.

 

[kayakersteve]

I changed my oil pump in place last year. I did jack up the vehicle some to give more clearance under engine (Be safe!) and it was no problem getting pan off and switching the pump.

I do think you have more wrong than an oil pump, however.

 

[Swath]

You'd be suprised at how long a engine can run sometimes with no oil pressure. They dont seize up right then and there unless the bearing clearances are real tight or your putting a lot of stress on the engine and build enough heat to seize things up. Of course on the flip side just because it didnt sieze doesnt mean theres no damage.
A lot of old engines didnt have oil pumps some used little more than dippers to feed some oil to the crank heck they didnt even have oil filters. Many of them lasted a very long time and still run today

I am suprised. If that pump failed completely when the oil pressure dropped and the noise started that motor ran without oil for much longer than I would have ever expected.

I do not question the fact that damage was done to the motor. To what degree is the question. When I drop the pan there will be a whole story inside the oil pan and inside the filter when I cut into it to have a look see.

If my experience level was higher I would do exactly as has been suggested, tear it down, check for problems, replace all the bearings, put it together and drive happy and confident. My option, with my limited skills and knowledge means I have to pay someone to do that, that is where I run into a problem and start to consider shortcuts. I have not previously bought a Bronco because I could not afford one. I finally find one I believe is a great value and snatch it up and now I'm looking a another grand or two. That hurts me in the wallet.

As I have said, I will take a look and make decisions based on factual data I find inside the motor. I am not going to make my decision based on guessing before looking.

I'm tickled every time I see it in my drive. Broncos look cool. Of course, I also think Suzuki Samurais look cool when lifted and with agressive big tires. Some muscle cars look cool (not all, take some of the Firebirds for instance, what an ugly nose).

I digress, I'm just damn glad to have a Bronco to play with regardless of the issues.

Jeff

 

[bmc69]

I am suprised. If that pump failed completely when the oil pressure dropped and the noise started that motor ran without oil for much longer than I would have ever expected.

Speaking as a former automotive machinist....I've seen the inside of engines that were run for many more miles than yours without a drop of oil delivered. Some actually survived relatively unscathed too...requiring only a moderate amount of work to repair.

You are probably not old like I am; I've been around long enough to have worked on many a large internal combustion engine that did not even have an oil pump. The bearings were entirely splash fed or periodically can-oiled by hand. A little lubrication film goes a long way.

 

[Swath]

Speaking as a former automotive machinist....I've seen the inside of engines that were run for many more miles than yours without a drop of oil delivered. Some actually survived relatively unscathed too...requiring only a moderate amount of work to repair.

You are probably not old like I am; I've been around long enough to have worked on many a large internal combustion engine that did not even have an oil pump. The bearings were entirely splash fed or periodically can-oiled by hand. A little lubrication film goes a long way.

Well sir, I am old enough to have a snap gap kit in my tool box, haven't used it in a while though.

I'm a fan of the hit-n-miss engines. I want one.

 

[broncnaz]

Well thats the whole key is making a informed descison about the inside of the engine. Its the main reason most of the suggestions are to really take a good look at it. We want you driving the bronco to but short cuts rarely get you there. Another option you may want to consider is putting a shout out to some bronco brothers near you I think there may be a few that have a lot of expericance close to you they may be able to help you out with the whole process even if you need to dive in deeper. When it comes down to it engines are not that complicated.

 

[plumbdoctor]

Jeff, there are probably four or five of us within 15 miles of you... I am off of 58th ave and Hwy 93, by the NAAC. In fact Saturday morning some guys are pulling and tearing into another motor which lost oil, down in WheatRidge. If I didn't have to be coaching football camp I would be around this weekend., but am sure I could round some guys up if you want?