Seized Oil Pump, 302

[Swath]

Jeff, there are probably four or five of us within 15 miles of you... I am off of 58th ave and Hwy 93, by the NAAC. In fact Saturday morning some guys are pulling and tearing into another motor which lost oil, down in WheatRidge. If I didn't have to be coaching football camp I would be around this weekend., but am sure I could round some guys up if you want?

I appreciate the offer. I do ok on these simpler things. A good friend (great wrench), is coming out to help Sunday. I know we will get a good look inside.

I now know why I still have the front hub tool in my box.

I could use a pointer on the proper pan gasket to get. Still use cork I would guess.

 

[bmc69]

I'm a fan of the hit-n-miss engines. I want one.

Me too! We had one that ran the power tools in the shop on the farm. Had to start that cranky beyatch up just to sharpen something on the bench grinder or drill one hole with the drill press... Hated it then..wish I had the entire vintage shop, shafting and belts, and engine now.

 

[Swath]

You are probably not old like I am; I've been around long enough to have worked on many a large internal combustion engine that did not even have an oil pump. The bearings were entirely splash fed or periodically can-oiled by hand. A little lubrication film goes a long way.

Well, according to your profile you are only 1 year older than me. Which is not quit as old as dirt but getting there... ;D

 

[Swath]

I could use a pointer on the proper pan gasket to get. Still use cork I would guess.

Found a recommendation on the FTE forum.

A one piece Motorsports steel core rubber clad gasket according to the folks on FTE.

I do usually try my searches before asking for something that I know has been answered before.

I will pick one up today along with an oil pump.

 

[Rustytruck]

Don't forget the replacement oil pump shaft for the distributor and the shaft clip. Make sure you put the clip on the shaft so if you pull out the distributor the shaft doesn't pull up out of the pump and drop in the pan. Drop the old pump. pull out drive shaft for pump. Take new shaft install clip and put in from below, then install new pump and gasket. Clean pick-up screen and check for cracks on the whole unit. Your whole failure could stem from a cracked pick-up sucking air not just low oil. A 302 will usually run with 4 quarts of oil. Bronco uses 6 quarts. Look for discoloration of the metal on the rod end at the crank. if you see any coloration change check that rod bearing closely. Pry the crank for and aft to see excessive play in the thrust bearing.
Make sure you check the hex in the bottom of the distributor.

 

[Swath]

Don't forget the replacement oil pump shaft for the distributor and the shaft clip. Make sure you put the clip on the shaft so if you pull out the distributor the shaft doesn't pull up out of the pump and drop in the pan. Drop the old pump. pull out drive shaft for pump. Take new shaft install clip and put in from below, then install new pump and gasket. Clean pick-up screen and check for cracks on the whole unit. Your whole failure could stem from a cracked pick-up sucking air not just low oil. A 302 will usually run with 4 quarts of oil. Bronco uses 6 quarts. Look for discoloration of the metal on the rod end at the crank. if you see any coloration change check that rod bearing closely. Pry the crank for and aft to see excessive play in the thrust bearing.
Make sure you check the hex in the bottom of the distributor.

Excellent advice, thanks.

The hex in the distributer is wallered out (that's a technical term).

Turns out the oil was not low, not sure how I misread the dipstick.

 

[Broncobowsher]

So the crankcase was overfilled by 2 quarts after the oil pressure went away.
That was probably a very lucky accident. Normally excessive oil just foams and creates engine destruction. In this case the overfill may have given a little splash lube, although not a very good one.

As for the true splash lubed engines, they still have an oil pump in them. Just not the conventional style that most people would think of. The bottom of the rod has a dipper that when it slams into the pool of oil forces the oil up into the bearing. Keep in ming that a lot of these old engines were also built with shim stock under the bearings caps. When the bearings got wear (and they got a lot of early wear) you could pull a little of the shim out to tighten the bearing clearance up and keep running the same bearings.

 

[Swath]

So the crankcase was overfilled by 2 quarts after the oil pressure went away.
That was probably a very lucky accident. Normally excessive oil just foams and creates engine destruction. In this case the overfill may have given a little splash lube, although not a very good one.

I wondered the exact thing this evening, if the crank splashing oil would happen. Would 2 quarts put it there?

I just couldn't read level on that damn dipstick I guess, unless oil was trapped up top of the engine somehow.

I dumped a quart in, checked again, dumped another and figured that would at least be enough to reach the oil pickup and I would hear a difference. I almost dumped another quart in.

I keep wondering about the work performed just a few months ago according to the receipts I have. They pulled the pan, did the main seal, regasketed the intake manifold. Then it was taken back a "few" times to finally cure the oil leak. Valve cover gaskets and valve cover grommet. Were all listed on one of the receipts. It is certainly possible something crept into the oil system somewhere.

 

[Swath]

As for the true splash lubed engines, they still have an oil pump in them. Just not the conventional style that most people would think of. The bottom of the rod has a dipper that when it slams into the pool of oil forces the oil up into the bearing. Keep in mind that a lot of these old engines were also built with shim stock under the bearings caps. When the bearings got wear (and they got a lot of early wear) you could pull a little of the shim out to tighten the bearing clearance up and keep running the same bearings.

Great info, thanks for sharing it. I find it very interesting the ingenuity of those folks building those simple old engines.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I wondered the exact thing this evening, if the crank splashing oil would happen. Would 2 quarts put it there?

I just couldn't read level on that damn dipstick I guess, unless oil was trapped up top of the engine somehow.

I dumped a quart in, checked again, dumped another and figured that would at least be enough to reach the oil pickup and I would hear a difference. I almost dumped another quart in.

I keep wondering about the work performed just a few months ago according to the receipts I have. They pulled the pan, did the main seal, regasketed the intake manifold. Then it was taken back a "few" times to finally cure the oil leak. Valve cover gaskets and valve cover grommet. Were all listed on one of the receipts. It is certainly possible something crept into the oil system somewhere.

A decade ago I measured the oil level on a 5.0 so I knew what to set an aftermarket dipstick to. Lost the notes but I recall the static oil level was just below the crank. That was static oil level, dynamically it would be a lot lower with all the oil in the top end being drained back down. With no oil being pumped to the top, and guessing the height of an extra 2 quarts based on what the 1-quart window on the dipstick looks like. I could see the crank doing a little splash around.

Waiting for oil pump autopsy

 

[Swath]

It's ALIVE!!!

I am very optimistic.

Pulled valve covers, nothing to see or report there.

Pulled the dizzy, I did not find the hollard out hex that was reported.

The oil pump drive shaft (they call it the intermediate shaft) was laying up to one side.

Pryed it away, put a wrench on it and the pump turned???

Drained the oil, magnetic drain plug had no metal at all on it.

Pulled the oil pan (with some effort, someone had siliconed the crap out of it so it was on there, no gasket).

It was immediately obvious the oil pump was loose. Pulled it off and somebody had used that same black silicone on both ends instead of gaskets.

I had bought a pump, gaskets, and pump drive shaft so I went ahead and put the new pump in along with the new shaft.

Everything was so clean I decided not to pull a bearing cap.

Cleaned all the silicone up and put it back together and filled it with oil.

Primed it with a drill which registered 40# on the dash gauge.

Fired it up, tweaked the carb a little and it runs great.

Pressure gauge sticks a nice 40# as opposed to the 10 it read before it went to zero.

Best guess, there was a minimum amount of oil going to the engine but a large amount bypassing the loose oil pump. All the silicone was not even squished out as if it was not tightened.

Internal inspection seems to verify a recent build. Has double roller chain.

Hopefully, the person who built the engine was not the one that screwed that pump up.

I'm guessing the shop that fixed the oil pan leak took it off to remove the pan and forgot to tighten up the bolts.

I B tickled.

 

[bmc69]

Awesome. That explains the one thing that had me most curious; the oil pump "seizing". It didn't.

As you've correctly noted...whoever bolted on that oil pump was a rank amateur.

 

[Chowbird]

Congrats, Swath. I'm really glad that played out well. I know a lot of us were following this thread like a really suspenseful novel. Excellent ending!

 

[Rox Crusher]

As my six year old likes to "sing" at the top of his lungs.........

EVERYTHING IS AWESOME !

 

[Teal68]

Sweet news indeed! Enjoy that Bronco!

 

[Swath]

Thanks guys, now I can start looking for the improvements and upgrades.

Like disk brakes, power steering.

I don't even know the gearing or if it might have lockers.

Right mow I'm tired and in need of beer. I'm not used to wrenching all day.

 

[hucklburry rev2]

Thanks guys, now I can start looking for the improvements and upgrades.

Like disk brakes, power steering.

I don't even know the gearing or if it might have lockers.

Right mow I'm tired and in need of beer. I'm not used to wrenching all day.

THat'll change....

 

[broncnaz]

I would have pulled a bearing cap anyhow just to check since its a new to you vehicle. It would just have been a good to know thing. With all the issues that this supposedly recently rebuilt engine has had on the lower end and all.

 

[TwoDalesDad]

I believe you would be wasting your time trying to drop the pan to repair the pump.....Start with a new EFI...OR....Find a reputable shop and save your money. Your going to need lots...lol

 

[Swath]

I believe you would be wasting your time trying to drop the pan to repair the pump.....Start with a new EFI...OR....Find a reputable shop and save your money. Your going to need lots...lol

Interesting observation. Considering it cost me $138 in parts and 5 hours in the garage today and I now have a great running motor.

I will see how many miles I get out of that investment.