Sharp Motorsports 4600 Class Early Bronco

[landshark99]

So I got the steel and fiberglass fenders weighed, and they came out to 14.3 and 10.3 pounds respectively. Now while it may appear that there is a 4 Lbs. difference, it wasn't exactly apples to apples since the steel fender still had the lower supports bolted on, the side-marker housing, bronco script logo, and a fiberglass flare riveted on versus the fiberglass fender which was bare. I am betting the actual weight difference is only a pound or two.



I appreciate the advice, and don't worry, I am under no illusions of grandeur! While I don't have any racing experience yet, I think I have done my homework and have a good idea of what to expect and understand the grind that goes along with building and campaigning a car. I do wish I had had been able to pit for a team prior to starting my effort (planned to last year, but things fell through).

King of the Hammers is a once a year race that is the first race of the Ultra4 series which consists of ~5 races throughout the year (KOH, ~3 regional races, & nationals). Many folks only commit to KOH, which is kind of the boat I am in. There are a few regional races I may try to make after the rig is done, but I have absolutely no interest in the short course races with man-made boulder fields on a dirt track. I figure 1 race a year for sure (KOH) plus maybe one or two others at my discretion. I am not going to be chasing the points championship for the series, or be traveling to go to a race every weekend. I might enter the rig in a local WE Rock event in the Sportsman class from time to time as well or do a NORRA race just for fun (I know it won't fit into any class rules).

How much $ are the fiberglass fenders vs steel? As you mentioned, the chances of body damage are very high at KOH so chances are you will be replacing one or both. Personally I wouldn't worry about the weight differences in the body panels, an early bronco actually doesn't have much weight without the wagon top above the belt line. I would be more concerned with the COG with the cage, tires, coolers and all the other crap you have to add. Personally i I think you made the right call on the 2" cage (I did the same). I would look at using smaller diameter tubing for areas outside the passenger compartment off the main compartment - but you already know this I am sure.

I would cut and reverse both driver and passenger floors so that the seats sit lower, this will open up a ton of seat options. Allow better visibility out of the front and allows you to build your cage lower which will help your COG. There is a floor channel under the seats that supports the floor you will have to cut out and fab a replacement, however you will run tubing between the cage across the floor anyway to mount the seats to and that should solve the floor issue.

I had to replace a TON of sheet metal on my build. It was important to me in my build to keep it close to stock and have a very nice even platform to build on and I bought or traded for replacement panels instead of fabbing my own to save time. I did all the sheet metal replacement and repair myself and had to keep reminding myself this was not a restoration. When I found myself trying to get things perfect and mired down, I had to stop and do a self check and tell myself this thing was a race bronco and it was going to get messed up.. make it reliable and get it done.

As far as getting it done and racing - I got allot of advice before, during and after my Race build... mainly because advice is free - most of the time . So i will pass on a couple of good ones:

Find a partner(s) in crime to help with the build and race(s). It's a tough go to build something that will last any race and even tougher to go at it alone. Find someone who has the passion and drive to help you build it and race it. I know location might be a factor but they don't have to be there everyday or even every week - just having someone sourcing stuff or cleaning things up so you don't have to saves you hundreds of hours. Maybe you find someone tomorrow, maybe in a few months -

I would also think about farming certain aspects of the build out to others (if you haven't already), it might cost you a little more but it will save you a ton of time and your sanity. I had my engine, transmission, transfer case and cage built by others. I just made sure the others could and would do the work I was fortunate enough to have good friends who helped along the way and donated more than their time for the effort and continue to do so.

We plan on racing NORRA this April/May. I know of at least 4 other Early Broncos that will as well. I don't have all the logistics figured out quite yet and I know its not a KOH race but you should think about coming down to check it out. I currently don't have any plans to race any state side races this year unless NORRA gets pushed back again but will keep you in the loop if we do as they would be a much easier attendance.

As far as racing NORRA for your rig - there is always a class and you would not be the only Bronco in it. Guaranteed.

Keep pushing and more importantly - figure out a heater!!!

 

[LSharpNM]

Awesome. So much fun. I pitted for Andrew Goodell for a few years when he was running the EMC in a stock class bronco. A little right side seat work as well.

Too far out to fully commit to pitting for you in 14 months but hit me up when it is closer. I am definitely interested.

On the t-shirts. Do it. 3 reasons. (1) People will buy them. (2) Extra incentive for you to stick it through - cannot let the people down that support you. (3) I want one. The logo is cool enough to put on a t-shirt. You could also post a separate thread asking if anyone on here does t-shirt or other type of design work and see if you can work out some sort of minor sponsor deal.

Cheers and good luck!

Steve

I'll definitely bug you for the pit support when the time comes!

I suppose I ought to start looking into getting a run of shirts made. I am not sure how I would go about selling them online, but I am sure I can get something figured out!

How much $ are the fiberglass fenders vs steel? As you mentioned, the chances of body damage are very high at KOH so chances are you will be replacing one or both. Personally I wouldn't worry about the weight differences in the body panels, an early bronco actually doesn't have much weight without the wagon top above the belt line. I would be more concerned with the COG with the cage, tires, coolers and all the other crap you have to add. Personally i I think you made the right call on the 2" cage (I did the same). I would look at using smaller diameter tubing for areas outside the passenger compartment off the main compartment - but you already know this I am sure.

Good point on replacement costs, fiberglass is certainly much more expensive. I agree that is doesn't seem to be worth it from a weight savings perspective.

I would cut and reverse both driver and passenger floors so that the seats sit lower, this will open up a ton of seat options. Allow better visibility out of the front and allows you to build your cage lower which will help your COG. There is a floor channel under the seats that supports the floor you will have to cut out and fab a replacement, however you will run tubing between the cage across the floor anyway to mount the seats to and that should solve the floor issue.

Unfortunately this is against the rules. Similarly, I would love to sink the fuel cell through the floor, but I can't do that either.

I had to replace a TON of sheet metal on my build. It was important to me in my build to keep it close to stock and have a very nice even platform to build on and I bought or traded for replacement panels instead of fabbing my own to save time. I did all the sheet metal replacement and repair myself and had to keep reminding myself this was not a restoration. When I found myself trying to get things perfect and mired down, I had to stop and do a self check and tell myself this thing was a race bronco and it was going to get messed up.. make it reliable and get it done.

This is my mindset as well. I know the Bronco is going to get beat up and I am not doing a restoration, but I don't want the body falling apart around me and want a solid foundation to build off.

As far as getting it done and racing - I got allot of advice before, during and after my Race build... mainly because advice is free - most of the time . So i will pass on a couple of good ones:

Find a partner(s) in crime to help with the build and race(s). It's a tough go to build something that will last any race and even tougher to go at it alone. Find someone who has the passion and drive to help you build it and race it. I know location might be a factor but they don't have to be there everyday or even every week - just having someone sourcing stuff or cleaning things up so you don't have to saves you hundreds of hours. Maybe you find someone tomorrow, maybe in a few months -

That's the hard part. Everyone says they are interested when you tell them about your racing effort, but is hard to get people to actually commit to coming out and helping or taking time off for the races. It doesn't help that I live 30 minutes + from almost all of my family and friends. I need some good friends to move in across the road

I would also think about farming certain aspects of the build out to others (if you haven't already), it might cost you a little more but it will save you a ton of time and your sanity. I had my engine, transmission, transfer case and cage built by others. I just made sure the others could and would do the work I was fortunate enough to have good friends who helped along the way and donated more than their time for the effort and continue to do so.

I understand that you have to value your own time and realize that it is a limited resource, but I also like to do things myself (not necessarily by myself) so I understand exactly how everything works and goes together. I feel understanding how everything works on the vehicle helps you as a driver and is invaluable to helping make trail repairs and keep going since KOH is a "no-chase race". I'll see how the time vs. money thing plays out and try to choose my battles wisely.

We plan on racing NORRA this April/May. I know of at least 4 other Early Broncos that will as well. I don't have all the logistics figured out quite yet and I know its not a KOH race but you should think about coming down to check it out. I currently don't have any plans to race any state side races this year unless NORRA gets pushed back again but will keep you in the loop if we do as they would be a much easier attendance.

I would be super interested in checking things out and lending a hand, so keep me posted. It would be great to look over some race Broncos for ideas as well as get some experience with the pits.

As far as racing NORRA for your rig - there is always a class and you would not be the only Bronco in it. Guaranteed.

Keep pushing and more importantly - figure out a heater!!!

Thanks for all the invaluable advice once again, and I'll see what I get figured out with the heat ;D

 

[LSharpNM]

I ran into a bit of an issue today...

I was assembling my new 4340 axles for the front, and like an idiot, I pressed the U-joints before comparing the new axle shafts to the old ones. It turns out I bought the wrong shafts

Here I was thinking I had a '78-'79 F250 Dana 44, but the F250 application passenger inner side shaft was too long and the driver side inner shaft was too short. After doing some research, it would appear that my axle is '73-'77 F150/F100 Dana 44 with '78-'79 F250 outers swapped on. For those who don't know (like myself :-[), the F150/F100 inner axles are 18.91" (driver) and 33.91" (passenger) vs. 18.62" (driver) and 34.75" (passenger) for F250 axles. A real F250 Dana 44 would be .55" wider than the 1/2 ton axle with the 3/4 ton outers, and may or may not have 3" OD 1/2" wall tubes (I've read conflicting information about this) instead of my 2.75" 1/2" wall tubes. In hindsight, the tell-tale give away that this wasn't an F250 axle was the fact that the driver side leaf spring wasn't cast as part of the center section like this:

So I started doing some thinking over several local brews...

I can cut the current axle tubes leaving 2-3" sticking out from each side of the center section casting and "C"s and sleeve them with some larger diameter tubing in order to make the axle the correct width for the axle shafts I bought, or I can just buy the correct length inners and chalk it up as a couple hundred dollar mistake.

The additional benefits to cutting the axle apart and re-tubing/sleeving it with larger tube are that I can set the caster exactly where I want, my 3-link brackets I bought were made for 3"+ tube and don't fit my 2.75" tubes, and I can substantially strengthen the axle housing in all directions. I did some number crunching and 3.5 OD 1/2" wall tubing would be 82.4% stronger than the current tubes and add 23 Lbs. I also looked at 3.75" OD 5/8" wall tube which would be 143.4% stronger than the current tubes and add 36 Lbs. With the bigger axle tubes, I am thinking that I may not need a truss seeing as Jesse Haines' Roxor isn't running a truss with Portals.

What are the peanut gallery's thoughts on this?

 

[Yeller]

Larger tube would be my preference but I’d meet in the middle 3-1/2x1/4 or even 3/16 wall over your existing tube. Do the work you want to the axle then split the larger tube in 1/2 weld it over the existing tube with the seams at the top and bottom. On the bottom weld that seam to the axle housing tube with an air gap at the top, add gussets to the tops of the C’s to prevent bending now you have not only increased the strength but added a high clearance truss that is easy to work around and not impeding up travel. Just be comfortable with your weld technique to not induce warping and making a frowning axle. I can help with that if needed.

 

[bronco217]

Should be 1/2" wall tubes, I wouldn't cut them. Get the right axles.

 

[LSharpNM]

Larger tube would be my preference but I’d meet in the middle 3-1/2x1/4 or even 3/16 wall over your existing tube. Do the work you want to the axle then split the larger tube in 1/2 weld it over the existing tube with the seams at the top and bottom. On the bottom weld that seam to the axle housing tube with an air gap at the top, add gussets to the tops of the C’s to prevent bending now you have not only increased the strength but added a high clearance truss that is easy to work around and not impeding up travel. Just be comfortable with your weld technique to not induce warping and making a frowning axle. I can help with that if needed.

The reason I was looking at such heavy wall tubing is so that I could bore out the ID of the new tube and/or turn down the stubs of the existing tube for a snug transitional fit/light press fit and essentially re-tube the axle without having to cut the existing tube out and bore the center section and "C"s out. I understand that most of the bending strength comes from the OD and not the wall thickness, so for a strength to weight standpoint using a larger diameter and thinner wall is beneficial over a smaller diameter, thicker wall.

I don't fully understand how you are proposing to use 3.5" OD 1/4" wall since the ID would be 3" leaving a considerable gap with the existing 2.75" tubing. The rest of what you mention makes sense to me though.

Just for comparison's sake, I have seen pictures of people bending legacy Dana 60 housings (3.125" OD 1/2" wall) and Superduty housings (3.5" OD 3/8" wall) which are 38% and 53% stronger respectively than my Dana 44. Obviously though, if you run into anything hard enough you are going to bend any axle regardless of trusses and tubing sizes, so a lot of it comes down to the driver to keep the rig alive. I am not sure what size tubing Jesse Haines is using on his axles, but it looks big, like maybe 4" OD big.

 

[Yeller]

Ok your idea with the thick tubing makes since, no sure how well it will fit up if both pieces aren't both perfectly round and straight. My idea is a lot of welding and fitting.... and now looking back not very practical, sometimes I should think more before I start typing LOL. It would work but a ton of unnecessary work.

I know it sounds hokey, and looks a little hokey too if not executed well..... but you could accomplish the same goal with a piece of angle welded to it and gain the added modulus your looking for. welding angle to a tube exceeds the strength of both pieces, you would just need to fully weld up the existing axle tube before welding the angle, but the angle could be used to jig the pieces straight for tacking up. Back before we could buy any axle configuration you wanted that is how we all built custom width axles, just cut it and but welded back together, there are literally 1000's of them still in use today, have yet to see one fail that was properly welded. It was the dirty secret of the axle business in the day.

The JH stuff I've worked on used 3-1/2" tubes, but I do believe you are correct he is using 4" now.

 

[landshark99]

The reason I was looking at such heavy wall tubing is so that I could bore out the ID of the new tube and/or turn down the stubs of the existing tube for a snug transitional fit/light press fit and essentially re-tube the axle without having to cut the existing tube out and bore the center section and "C"s out. I understand that most of the bending strength comes from the OD and not the wall thickness, so for a strength to weight standpoint using a larger diameter and thinner wall is beneficial over a smaller diameter, thinner wall.

I don't fully understand how you are proposing to use 3.5" OD 1/4" wall since the ID would be 3" leaving a considerable gap with the existing 2.75" tubing. The rest of what you mention makes sense top me though.

Just for comparison's sake, I have seen pictures of people bending legacy Dana 60 housings (3.125" OD 1/2" wall) and Superduty housings (3.5" OD 3/8" wall) which are 38% and 53% stronger respectively than my Dana 44. Obviously though, if you run into anything hard enough you are going to bend any axle regardless of trusses and tubing sizes, so a lot of it comes down to the driver to keep the rig alive. I am not sure what size tubing Jesse Haines is using on his axles, but it looks big, like maybe 4" OD big.

I would just shoot Jesse a PM through instagram and ask him.

I didn't digest everything you said above on the axles - essentially you are saying you got the wrong axle shafts and the axle you have is thinner, not as strong as the one you really want. To solve both issues you want to cut, rotate and sleeve it to the length you need for the axle shafts and then hopefully not have to truss it.

Honestly I can't give you any field advice on that one, I have been known to warp housings when i weld them and I don't have the jig or welding experience to do what your attempting. Matter of fact I am trying to figure out how to do a light truss on my D44 on the racer to keep it alive as we speak.

If it were me, I would probably look for a stronger axle housing and truss it and sell the stuff I don't need to recoup some of the cost - but know it may not be easily done where you live.

BTW if you do end up looking for stuff or needing stuff here in the front range of Colorado I would be happy to help. I live in the City of Denver so very central...

 

[Yeller]

I'd be happy to coach any of you on methods to reduce warpage, its not as complicated as many want you to believe, it is just opposite to general consensus of welding logic. The key is larger wire, higher amps and more speed, reducing dwell time is the key.

 

[LSharpNM]

Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate having folks to bounce ideas off of. Yeller, I am open to any advice you have welding axle housings. Regardless of what I do, I am going to end up doing a lot of welding on this housing. I've read up quite a bit on the subject and how to keep them straight, but I am far from an expert. Since my background is exclusively crawling, I haven't had the need to truss an axle before.

Now the part I forgot to include in my previous post, it looks like the new axle shafts run into bind at about 33-34º (as best as I can tell with my cheapo magnetic angle finder). I am not sure what steering angle the axle will be capable with the 8" stroke of the ram, but I am curious if others have had issues with aftermarket shafts binding? I am not really trying to get anymore steering angle than stock here, so it seems like the shafts shouldn't have issues binding. I suppose I ought to grab one of the stock shafts and see where it binds.

 

[Yeller]

The basic principles are pretty simple. On the steel parts keep weld beads down to 3/16-1/4” in width and height. Do your best to weld any long welds in the horizontal position. It’s not mandatory but if you have .045 wire your a step ahead. You want to weld as hot and fast as your equipment and ergonomics will allow. No fancy weaving, no pushing and pulling, hold the wire tip of the wire steady in the groove. Pushing the puddle versus dragging will make the puddle flow to the sides and be flat and not build up. Hold the torch perpendicular to the groove your welding. It’s really difficult to describe all of this but it works.

There are a lot of complicated weld and stop, let it cool techniques out there. They are highly ineffective on large pieces. The proven trick by production welding is faster is key to stopping warping. Dwell time creates heat soak and heat soak creates warpage.

 

[Yeller]

Now on the ductile/cast steel parts you need that dwell time to open the pours to get a solid weld. With .035 wire run 300ipm on wire speed and 22 volts. Clean everything well run a small bead then cap with a larger bead and a circular weave to get a 5/16-3/8 bead and they will be solid but once you start do not stop until your finished. At that setting the puddle will be too runny to weld very far out of position, if you do you will not get a good weld.

This method works well on center sections and knuckles. The C’s are forged, they weld like normal steel.

Hope this helps, feel free to shoot me a pm with your number if you want to discuss it. I’ve welded hundreds of housings and have yet to warp one

 

[nvrstuk]

I'm having fun following your post... If I lived 1000 miles closer to KOH and other desert venues I seriously would be considering something like you're doing... good for you- keep the dream!!

I can't add any help for racing however, weight like everyone that races knows, is the "silent killer".

Good luck, hang in there as you will have thousands of hours in your build and research up to your first race

 

[LSharpNM]

I'm having fun following your post... If I lived 1000 miles closer to KOH and other desert venues I seriously would be considering something like you're doing... good for you- keep the dream!!

I can't add any help for racing however, weight like everyone that races knows, is the "silent killer".

Good luck, hang in there as you will have thousands of hours in your build and research up to your first race

Thanks for the encouragement!

I got word back from Jesse Haines, and he said he is running 3.5" OD 3/8" wall and his Roxor weighs in at 4,400 Lbs. He also claimed that most people in the 4600 class are "well over 5,000 Lbs." I am hoping to come out in the same ball park weight-wise as Jesse's Roxor, so I am leaning towards re-tubing the front axle and not doing a truss. A truss will have a higher probability of warping the axle housing and eat up clearance that will be needed to keep the rig low while maximizing compression travel. I haven't committed to anything, but I figured I would share my thought process.

 

[landshark99]

so, how are things going??

 

[maverickconner]

Hell I need to take a run up and see this thing. I'm down here in Ruidoso.

 

[LSharpNM]

Hell I need to take a run up and see this thing. I'm down here in Ruidoso.

Anytime you want, I'll have cold beers on hand and work that needs to be done ;D

so, how are things going??

Thanks for keeping me accountable! Unfortunately nothing too exciting has been going on lately. I got the body stripped down and separated from the frame, and the frame is just about fully stripped, just have the engine and front axle to take off now. I need to go buy another engine stand because the two I already have are occupied I have been waiting for the tubing I ordered for the front axle for about a month, but it should arrive tonight if the UPS tracker isn't lying.

I used some scrap 2" OD .120 wall HREW I had sitting around to brace the door openings and tail gate opening.

I don't think the body mount bolts had ever been removed in this Bronco's 47 years of existence which made removal a much bigger pain in the ass than it should have been. Fortunately I had my Miller wrench on hand to save the day when all else failed.

I ended up cutting the core support off since I didn't have any good pieces of scrap metal to try and brace it, and the metal that was there needs to be replaced anyway due to fatigue cracking and the torch-cut holes that were presumably prior rust removal. Here is the body separated from the chassis:

Rear portion of the frame completely stripped:

Removing the tranny and transfer case with the infamous orange straps of death ;D

Just the front left to finish:

To follow up on one of my previous posts where I was concerned about the new 4340 shafts binding, I measured the steering angle on the axle housing with the steering stops bottomed out and it only has ~30º of steering throw. Based on that, the 33-34º bind angle of the shafts should be fine. I had no idea the steering angle on a stock Dana 44 housing was so bad

I also called around to get estimates for sand blasting the frame and tub since I hate cleaning parts and was quoted $500-$800. I am debating whether it is worth it or not, but it would be nice to work with clean metal.

 

[ntsqd]

If at all possible try to have it blasted with baking soda instead of sand. That is a better media to use on sheet metal in particular as it is much less inclined to warp it. I know you're not exactly building a concurs resto, but why cause yourself more work than necessary?
It also turns to dust on contact so that you won't have sand blowing out of the thoroughly cleaned & prepped body, when at speed, two years later. Plenty of posts out there documenting that exact problem with sand.

 

[landshark99]

I also called around to get estimates for sand blasting the frame and tub since I hate cleaning parts and was quoted $500-$800. I am debating whether it is worth it or not, but it would be nice to work with clean metal.

totally worth it...

 

[LSharpNM]

If at all possible try to have it blasted with baking soda instead of sand. That is a better media to use on sheet metal in particular as it is much less inclined to warp it. I know you're not exactly building a concurs resto, but why cause yourself more work than necessary?
It also turns to dust on contact so that you won't have sand blowing out of the thoroughly cleaned & prepped body, when at speed, two years later. Plenty of posts out there documenting that exact problem with sand.

Thanks for the tip! I have never had anything blasted before, so I'll make sure to clarify that I want soda blasting