Solenoid delete

[beaux312]

Haven’t been on here in a while. I need help bypassing the old starter solenoid. I swapped to the explorer starter and need help deleting the old one.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Generally good to keep the old one

But if you must. Battery cable directly to the starter.
S terminal goes 2 places. One is the solenoid on the starter itself. The other is a big switching diode to feed the wire you took off the I terminal. This way when you are in start you can still feed power back into the ignition keeping the bypass functional. Sometimes this is needed, other times you will never start with out it, and a few times you get lucky and don't need it.

 

[chrlsful]

starters w/internal 'solinoids' don't need it. Some smooth the engine bay by using a PMGR starter - this allows delete of solinoid.

Additional step is a ford 3G (GM called theirs a 'one wire' - I do not suggest them but the ford instead). This allows removal of the (blk box) regulator. (ele the worse of my knowledge).

TWO 'smooth the engine bay' ideas.

 

[Steve83]

If there was an old solenoid, it would be attached to the old starter. If you're talking about the thing on the fender - that's the starter relay, and it needs to stay there, working. This page explains how to change from an original-style starter to a modern PMGR:

(click this text)

 

[DirtDonk]

Ford left it there, so I agree with those that said you should leave it too. Or at least do what you can to continue using it.
For one thing, it's a more convenient and reliable place to put all of your power wires. Otherwise you would want to replace it with a terminal stud.
For another, using it lets you utilize shorter and less expensive and potentially more reliable though certainly easier to replace, battery and starter cables.
And for yet another reason, it isolates the circuit once the key is turned to OFF or RUN so you don't run afoul of starter run-on. Which does happen with these starters now and then.

Paul

 

[jamesroney]

Haven’t been on here in a while. I need help bypassing the old starter solenoid. I swapped to the explorer starter and need help deleting the old one.

If you have HEI ignition, then you can delete the relay on the fender. If you use the traditional 8 Volt coil, (and yes...if you have a 12V coil that is rated for use with a ballast resistor, it is really an 8V coil.) Then you need some kind of starter bypass relay to supply voltage to the coil during cranking.

In case you didn't know, the traditional 12V ignition system was designed to provide spark when the engine is cranking. During cranking, the battery voltage gets pulled down to about 8V. So the manufacturer designed the system to run at 8 Volts. Once the engine fires...the alternator kicks in, and the battery voltage gets up to a nice steady 13.2-14.7 Volts. In order to accomodate the running voltage, a giant resistor is placed in series with the coil to reduce the voltage back to 8V.

That giant resistor is the long resistor wire embedded in your factory Ford wiring harness.

So if you are going to remove the factory starter relay, you need to bypass the factory resistor wire during crank. OR...you can buy a real 12V coil (the one that says "no-resistor", remove your factory resistor wire, and hope that it provides spark while cranking on the coldest day of the year with the weakest battery.

Or you can do as recommended above...and keep the relay on the fender.

Just move the starter cable from the big post on the back to the big post on the front. Then run a 14 GA wire from the big post on the back to the small post on the Explorer starter.

 

[jamesroney]

As long as we are splitting hairs...

A solenoid is an electro-mechanical device that uses a coil of wire to induce a magnetic field to make motion.

The starter relay mounted on the fender is a Solenoid Relay. It uses a solenoid to move a contactor to allow for high current to be switched.

The solenoid on your Ford Starter happens to use the magnetic field to pull a lever to engage the bendix...and then close an electrical contact to energize the motor.

The starter relay on a GM starter is also a solenoid relay, but it is a removable and serviceable part.

Since the GM part was such a horrid design, in a terrible location, and since it was the only solenoid relay in the circuit...it became known as the "starter solenoid." Every decent repair shop would have one or two on hand.
Since the Ford part was fairly reliable, and was fully integrated into the starter housing...when it failed, you replaced the starter..the Ford part became known as "the starter." The solenoid relay mounted on the fender became known as the "starter relay."

By function, they are both solenoid relays. But since most every mechanical relay is a solenoid relay...the naming convention just drops the "solenoid" part, and calls it a relay. It is interesting that the Chevy solenoid, is actually just a relay, and the Ford relay is actually a solenoid.

Gotta get to work...

 

[chrlsful]

post #4 helps me (I usually go to fordification 4 schematics) as it shows "B4 & after" just as the OP requests (well, the 2nd anyway). Due to lack of knowledge of ele systems I can believe anything told by others (correct or not).

"...As long as we are splitting hairs..."
Don't concern ur self, james, its news to me, 'preciate it, thnx.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

Jamesroney, I do have a couple solid state ones in my bronco. Just sayin.


Hugh

 

[Broncobowsher]

I have found through multiple personal experiences that the Bronco ignition switch is not reliable in providing power to the ignition in the start position. Stock it doesn't matter, the bypass wire takes care of it. Deleting the fender solenoid (relay, whatever) you loose that bypass wire. Doesn't matter if you are running a ballast resistor or not. Even the generic HEI still needs power in crank position, and the Bronco iginition switch just isn't reliable for that. Some people get lucky. Others will just have the random no-start and not understand it. Try a second time and it fires right up.

I only found it because I tied an electronic gauge into the ignition for power. On those random no-starts, the gauge didn't power up during crank. Had to be observant of the gauges when going from run to start and back to run to see it. Usually the gauge stayed powered up in crank and the Bronco would start. But not always.

 

[chrlsful]

now "the pink wire"? comes in...
that swollen lill guy hiding,

 

[Steve83]

As long as we are splitting hairs...

There is no hair. Ford designed the vehicle, and its parts; and Ford calls it the "starter relay" because of what it does - not because of how it's built. Like all relays, it relays a low-current signal (from the ig.sw. in this case) to a high-current device (the starter motor). It wouldn't matter if it did that using a solenoid to throw the switch, or a solid-state relay, or a monkey flipping a toggle - it would still be a relay; not a monkey. Your Bronco has several connecting rods inside it, but you don't call the whole Bronco a connecting rod, do you? The one ON the starter is called the "starter solenoid" because its primary function is to convert electric current into straight-line mechanical force (to shove the Bendix into the ring gear), which is what all solenoids do. Yes, after that's done, it also closes a switch to power the motor, but that's a secondary function.

Of course, you're free to call a tail a leg if you want. But as the man said: that doesn't MAKE IT a solenoid.

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

I think he was mostly just clarifying what the devices are and how they work, which is helpful for people that don't know. Which is most people when starting work on cars, not all. In the end starter solenoid is the easiest to use as that is what most people call it. At least most car people I work with call it the starter solenoid, even the engineers that know exactly what it is. All good in the end. . . To be clear not disagreeing with the comment on it being called a starter relay. Just language stuff. I think this is as close to politics as this forum is supposed to get.

 

[jamesroney]

There is no hair. Ford designed the vehicle, and its parts; and Ford calls it the "starter relay" because of what it does - not because of how it's built. Like all relays, it relays a low-current signal (from the ig.sw. in this case) to a high-current device (the starter motor). It wouldn't matter if it did that using a solenoid to throw the switch, or a solid-state relay, or a monkey flipping a toggle - it would still be a relay; not a monkey. Your Bronco has several connecting rods inside it, but you don't call the whole Bronco a connecting rod, do you? The one ON the starter is called the "starter solenoid" because its primary function is to convert electric current into straight-line mechanical force (to shove the Bendix into the ring gear), which is what all solenoids do. Yes, after that's done, it also closes a switch to power the motor, but that's a secondary function.

Of course, you're free to call a tail a leg if you want. But as the man said: that doesn't MAKE IT a solenoid.

The hair splitting came from someone making a distinction between a relay and a solenoid, and the FACT that this particular relay contains a solenoid. Ford named the device a "B6AZ-11450-A" and calls it a "switch." In later revisions, it was also named a "relay." You can call it a "starter relay" but of course when you use the same device in the glow plug circuit on an 1984 F250 then it can't possibly be the starter relay anymore. If you want to buy it on Summit Racing...you want to call it the starter solenoid.

I use my "foot" to depress the lever to engage the Starter Drive, and Electrical Switch on my 1952 Jeep starter motor...That does not make my foot a "relay." If I used a monkey to perform the same action...that would also not make my foot a relay. If however...I informed several people in sequence to pass the information to the monkey, I would then "relay" the information to the monkey.

My goal of my making the distinction about the "B6AZ-11450-A Switch" was to ensure that the secondary (tertiary?) function of providing proper voltage to the ignition circuit was satisfied during cranking. I did not want him to remove the B6AZ-11450-A and then have his connecting rods no longer function.

Gotta go work...

 

[AZ73]

Mine says "Starter Motor Relay". ;D I just happen to be installing it today and was reading the thread to see if I could delete it to clean up the engine compartment. I'm keeping it but I think I'll install it on the apron to the left of the battery.

 

[chrlsful]

even worse - on my i6 forum we have folks from around the world. No problem. BUT talk to the english speakers (Oz, NZ, GB, etc) and it gets very bad.

Kinda what this guy is getting at. Altho we use english to talk together THEY use the same wrds for different things than we (usa) and different things have the same names. So...

I'm with him. Specific language is awfully useful in specific situations. (Like here). Auto Mechanics is far from the knuckle dragin neanderthal portrayed several generations ago. Problem is...I'm that neanderthal w/any "auto electrics" & most 'fuel systems' after 1983...
8^0

 

[T-7ToNewOldB]

I’ve got a friend I work with who is from Australia. Every time I ask for a ride he says no, but he’ll give me a lift.

Had a friend named Randy. Landed in London, phoned the cab company and said I’m Randy I need a Ride. She said “you must be from the US, don’t ever say that again.”

Relays are switches, but with style.

 

[gnpenning]

Careful bring up your boot and bonnet as well.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Don't forget that your car has wings.

 

[AZ73]

And better not show them your fanny pack