Starter Recommendations?

[jckkys]

Today I went to the starter and alternator shop here in Tucson. They offer Nippon Denso starters for about 160 bucks. Heat is no problem with these starters. They confirmed that both the Mean Green and Power Masters are Nippon Densos with different gear drives and mounting rings. Not to mention higher prices. Most medium to large cities have this kind of business. They supply large fleet operators and government agencies. Go to the pros not Auto Zone for info and products.

 

[nvrstuk]

Not sure how "they" can say that heat has no effect on these starters...

Electricity and heat don't mix.... heat creates more resistance ...

Hope they are right.

 

[BulldogBronco]

what's your timing set at??

I believe it’s set to 15 degrees at idle and like 34 or 36 at WOT? What do you recommend for the Sniper?

 

[blubuckaroo]

I've been using one of these inexpensive mini-starters, from Toms, for quite a few years now. I have headers, but they are the Hooker Headers that don't run that close to the starter. \
This little starter cranks my 9.7 compression 302 and will drag the Bronco off the road if needed.
https://www.tomsbroncoparts.com/product/starter-mini-high-torque-manual-new

 

[BulldogBronco]

This ended up being a timing issue so thanks for the advice, my cranking timing was set to 15 degrees and I had someone tell me 8 degrees is recommended. Made that change and haven't had any issues since!

 

[jckkys]

The best timing curve for a particular engine is just that. The factory recommendations are safe for all engines of that type. Safe meaning it won't ping. Most Ford small blocks produce the most HP and MPGs with a lot more initial advance. My 351 likes 20 degrees initial and 20 more in the mechanical at 2500 RPM. I'm sure your engine can take more advance than 8 degrees. This will cause some kick back, when starting a hot engine, that will stop a weak starter. The Nippon Denso starter will simply power through the kick back. These starters produce far more torque than any other. Here's Wild Horses description of their Nippon Denso starter, claiming 100 percent more torque.https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/M_T_Mean_Green_Starter/Bronco_Starters.
Before setting your timing, read this excellent article;
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?22229-The-Ultimate-Duraspark-Distributor-Timing-Guide. Read the whole article. With this info you can get the free HP and MPGs your engine is capable of. I doubt those who don't see a reason to use the best starter have an optimized timing curve on their engines.

 

[m_m70]

I would agree.....
Asked about the timing as some just don't know that can affect starting. Nothing wrong at all with 15* with a SBF unless you have pinging issues. Mine's happy at 18 @ idle and 44* at 3k. Less than 15* it feels like it's been castrated .


I also have the WH "mini" starter with out any issues for years.....

 

[BulldogBronco]

When you guys talk about pinging issues, what does that mean or sound like? Right now mine is set at 8 deg cranking, 15 at initial and 15 at idle and 36 at WOT. Would you guys change any of that? My engine is mostly stock with a mild cam, 302.

 

[BulldogBronco]

With a holley sniper and hyperspark controlling the timing

 

[DirtDonk]

So you are able to set cranking degrees and idle degrees separately? That's a nice feature.

Nothing wrong with 8 while cranking then, but I believe that it can still take more. Easily 10 or 12, but as long as it starts quickly there is no reason to change from 8 either that I can think of.
Most of us are still dealing with single-setting type, where your idle and cranking timing are the same.

A side note to all this would be the condition and size of your starter and battery cables.
If they're not AT LEAST 4ga, you're at a disadvantage right off the bat. If they're 2ga or larger then you're set for just about any eventuality.

To your question of pinging, you can hear it as a type of rattling that is sometimes described as "pebbles in a tin can" or better perhaps, "broken glass in a tin can" and can vary from infrequent and barely audible to extremely persistent and somewhat loud.
Usually only under heavy throttle acceleration, it can actually happen just about any time.
I actually forget if it's related more to pre-ignition than to true detonation (though I think it is) so I still prefer the perhaps vague common lingo and call it pinging versus any other description anytime you hear that noise.
Some will also call it "knocking" (or spark knock) but that word is best left to other evil noises coming from an engine such as a bad bearing, low oil-pressure, or whatever. And knocking typically indicates a slightly deeper tone than the higher pitched sound of pinging.

Since your computer is handling the timing duties, the programability helps you to reduce conditions that might cause pinging. If the Sniper includes a knock-sensor then you will probably never experience it.

Paul

 

[BulldogBronco]

Paul, yep, you can set them separately which is definitely a nice feature. I only asked about the pinging because I can hear a small noise from time to time that you could maybe categorize as that. Seems to happen when it’s just sitting there idling. That’s why I was curious if I should set my idle timing higher than 15 degrees. Not sure if those things are related but that’s good to hear the system should have some sort of anti knock sensor. Thanks as always for your input!

 

[DirtDonk]

I only asked about the pinging because I can hear a small noise from time to time that you could maybe categorize as that. Seems to happen when it’s just sitting there idling.

Odd to hear pinging at idle, so I would assume for now that it might be something different and check into it. If you think it can be heard in a video, you might try to upload one for us to hear.

That’s why I was curious if I should set my idle timing higher than 15 degrees.

That would seem to be related to something else, but if pinging would not benefit from more advanced timing I would not think. Less timing is typically called for, but again, not an idle thing. Usually under heavy loads.

Not sure if those things are related but that’s good to hear the system should have some sort of anti knock sensor. Thanks as always for your input!

I don't know if it does or not and was just speculating. We'd have to find documentation stating that fact before going on that belief.
Most computer controlled engines do have one form or another of knock sensor, which is why I was always surprised that our Fords with EFI on the old 302's and 351's did not have one.

Paul

 

[jckkys]

Pinging is just another word for pre-ignition. It occurs when the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber ignites before the spark plug fires or there is another source that ignites the mixture and forms another flame front. Again this happens as a result of high pressure. At idle the mixture is under very little pressure.
It sounds like a diesel that runs solely on compression. Diesels that get all the air they can take in, at idle so always need a stronger starter. The four eyed forum article points out that timing unnecessarily retarded sacrifices power and fuel economy. If there is some kick back it can be easily overcome with a quality starter. You may also want to consider that Duraspark II modules include a 4 degree cranking retard to fight the kick back when starting heat soaked engine.
It doesn't make sense to sacrifice power and fuel economy to save money on a cheap starter.

 

[BulldogBronco]

Makes sense, thanks guys!