Mini Starter

[Bitch'nBronco]

I'm going to get my battery tested tomorrow when I take the starter back just to rule that out as well. It's about 6 years old and I'm wondering if it doesn't have the amperage to throw the bendix and rotate the engine over. I've done a bunch of research and this should pretty much be a plug and play mod

 

[Broncobowsher]

You got it wired right.

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

Got the battery and the starter tested today, both are good. Not sure what the issue is yet

 

[Jdgephar]

Found this...

 

[Brush Hog]

Here are the measurement specs from Powermaster. I was slightly off on my install the first time and had engagement issues.

 

[Jdgephar]

I also feel like I can see too much of the gear when it's off, leading me to think it's not the correct manual starter. I don't have capability to attach files, but send me an email address and I can send the PDF with all of the part numbers and measurements from BCB (or anyone else who can post the file here). The BCB link to the file is dead now.

Edit
Found the post with the file attached:
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/what-is-the-between-manual-vs-auto-starter.320321/

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

I also feel like I can see too much of the gear when it's off, leading me to think it's not the correct manual starter. I don't have capability to attach files, but send me an email address and I can send the PDF with all of the part numbers and measurements from BCB (or anyone else who can post the file here). The BCB link to the file is dead now.

Edit
Found the post with the file attached:
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/what-is-the-between-manual-vs-auto-starter.320321/

That PDF in the thread may have some gold in it to solve my problem

"
For the manual transmission starters the dimension from the back of the engine block to the aft edge of
the ring gear on the flywheel is .420 in, the starter ring is still .375, which leaves the forward edge of the
ring gear only .050 aft of the engine block. HOWEVER, this only applies to the old large diameter
(14 1/8” dia) 164 tooth flywheels! On the small diameter (13¼” dia) 157 tooth flywheels the backspacing
is the same as with auto trans flexplate. So, a starter for manual transmissions will not work with the 157
tooth manual transmission flywheel, even though it could be bolted to the engine.

The majority of the late model applications using the T-5 five speed transmission used the small 157
tooth flywheel, hence we see starters designated for a “5 speed manual trans”, it is not actually the
transmission, but the diameter of the flywheel (and subsequent ring gear backspacing) that dictates the
AUTO starter be used. It has nothing to do with a 3,4,5 or 10 speed trans, it is all about the flywheel that
they are using. If a customer is using the complete T-5 setup from some late model application (flywheel,
clutch, bellhousing, and trans) then they will need theAUTOstarter."

From the last 3 posts, I've got some measuring to do

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

Sounds like from this excerpt that I have a 157 tooth flywheel and the teeth are only partially engaging until they're not engaging at all. I may need to try an auto starter after I do some measuring.

If the AUTO starter is installed with a 164 tooth
manual flywheel, the starter will be continuously
engaged with the flywheel, and will destroy the starter
as soon as the engine starts.

If the MANUAL starter is used with the small 157
tooth flywheel (or flexplate) the opposite will occur.
The teeth will not engage the flywheel ring, or if it
does engage it will only catch the very ends of the
teeth and cause damage to the flywheel.

 

[Steve83]

On the original fender solenoid I moved my starter cable to the battery side and then added the smaller wire to the side the cable was originally on.

That's the right way to wire the starter relay (on the fender), but what about the starter itself? Does it have a small clip that joins the solenoid's small trigger terminal to the larger power terminal?

(click this text)

I'm going to get my battery tested...I'm wondering if it doesn't have the amperage to throw the bendix and rotate the engine over.

It takes LESS current than the original-style starter. And if it spins the engine over to crank, then the battery is putting out enough current.

I've done a bunch of research and this should pretty much be a plug and play mod

It is, if the starter does NOT have that jumper, and you moved the relay wire as you said. Pics of all the wire connections & the starter would help us help you.

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

That's the right way to wire the starter relay (on the fender), but what about the starter itself? Does it have a small clip that joins the solenoid's small trigger terminal to the larger power terminal?

(click this text)


It takes LESS current than the original-style starter. And if it spins the engine over to crank, then the battery is putting out enough current.

It is, if the starter does NOT have that jumper, and you moved the relay wire as you said. Pics of all the wire connections & the starter would help us help you.

If you look at post 14 I drew out how I wired it, I think its wired the same as your new starter diagram. I think my issue is shallow tooth engagement. I'll take some pics this weekend when i get a second to get back to work on it. Thanks for sharing the diagram

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

I measured 3/8" from the engine block plate to the ring gear. So it sounds like I have a 164 tooth flywheel

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

That's the right way to wire the starter relay (on the fender), but what about the starter itself? Does it have a small clip that joins the solenoid's small trigger terminal to the larger power terminal?

(click this text)


It takes LESS current than the original-style starter. And if it spins the engine over to crank, then the battery is putting out enough current.

It is, if the starter does NOT have that jumper, and you moved the relay wire as you said. Pics of all the wire connections & the starter would help us help you.

I ordered a 3223 starter as listed in the BC Broncos writeup, here's what the back of it looks like (same solenoid as the 3205SV I used before).

Turns out Advance Autoparts lists the 3205SV as "fits for a 94 Cobra" which were all T5 manual cars, and their site lists the same starter as "fits 94 GT Automatic." So it sounds like I was running an automatic starter which would explain why it stayed engaged after startup.

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

Uploading the BCBroncos writeup for whoever searches this in the future

 

[DirtDonk]

What was the part number for your first starter?
Was it the 3223 that was called out for a manual transmission and that 164t flywheel? Or something else?
If it was, sounds like you simply got a defective starter or, for some reason, the alignment was off. Both seem to be more common these days.
But the second starter was a no go from the get go because it was for an automatic in a truck, or a 157t auto/manual.

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

The 3223 was called out for a Manual Transmission and 164T flywheel, my first starter was a 3241N which was also called out for the same application as the 3223. It was a super cheap ($60) starter from rock auto, I'm guessing it was just faulty and used it for the core charge for the second starter that was the wrong starter. If this 3223 doesn't work, I may just give up and go back to the stock style since I know that works

 

[DirtDonk]

Interesting. My BBB book (admittedly out of date at 2006) does not even list a 3241. Just jumps from 3232 to 3242 or something like that. But no 3241.
And it also does not list an alternative for a 3223.
Wonder what the 3241 was supposed to accomplish?

Anyway, hopefully the third time's a charm still!
Good luck.

Paul

 

[ba123]

Maybe a little more pricey, but I got the Powermaster 9603 and love it.

Easy to make sure which is right for you here from their catalog:

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

Interesting. My BBB book (admittedly out of date at 2006) does not even list a 3241. Just jumps from 3232 to 3242 or something like that. But no 3241.
And it also does not list an alternative for a 3223.
Wonder what the 3241 was supposed to accomplish?

Anyway, hopefully the third time's a charm still!
Good luck.

Paul

I've never had more interest in starter part numbers than I do now lol. I want to know why some have an S or an SV at the end of the part number. I have no desire to become an expert on Ford mini starters, but my curiosity may force me to lol

 

[Bitch'nBronco]

Maybe a little more pricey, but I got the Powermaster 9603 and love it.

Easy to make sure which is right for you here from their catalog:
View attachment 933895

I may go that route, I'm a cheapskate so it's hard to justify... but what's an extra 180 thrown into the money pit at this point lol

My neighbor who isn't a car guy was looking at the Bronco and said "Wow, look at all this... must be a fortune into this thing" and i told him "Yep, i hide all my money in plain sight... you can barely tell it's there!" Hahaha

 

[Speedrdr]

I may go that route, I'm a cheapskate so it's hard to justify... but what's an extra 180 thrown into the money pit at this point lol

I feel ya! I’m cheap but my wife thinks I spend $$ like water.

My neighbor who isn't a car guy was looking at the Bronco and said "Wow, look at all this... must be a fortune into this thing"

And that’s why I don’t allow ANYONE to make comments like that, especially if my wife is within 100 yards… because I can’t stand to get “caught” with an unexplained expense. Lol

R