Taking EFI into get tuned

[BroncoinAlaska]

Got the EFI running as well as I thinking can. Swapped out a lot of sensors and have no codes besides EGR. The engine still runs off and occasionally sputters and has a lack of power.
SPECS:
347 Ford Racing block
185cc aluminum heads
Trick Flow upper lower manifold
75mm BBK TB
70mm C&L MAF
24lbs injectors
BC Broncos headers & 2-1 exhaust
Explorer Serpentine system
A9P computer
Ryan's Harness
BC Broncos EFI fuel lines AN
BC Broncos 23 gallon tank 155 Lph pump

I have talked with the closest shop that can dyno tune Ford 5.0's. Just describing the setup they said they can tune the Bronco. They recommended that I replace a few items.
New distributor - I was thinking MSD pro billet?
Fuel pressure regulator - Aeromotive
Fuel rails - Aeromotive or Trick Flow???

I can see the need to replace the fuel pressure regulator. The fuel rails I have no idea about. I thought the stock rails were good until super high horsepower.

What other parts should I replace to get the most out of the tune?
I would like to get this back on the road every day!

 

[Broncobowsher]

I see no reason to replace any of that.
There is no performance gain in an aftermarket distributor in an EFI application. It triggers the hall effect switch just like stock and points the spark at the right terminal.

No need for an adjustable pressure regulator, all the fuel adjustments should be done with the computer. If the shop wants to jack around with the fuel pressure, find a new shop, they don't know what they are doing.

The stock fuel rails will have no trouble. No need for high dollar aftermarket fuel rails.


I really have no idea why they want you to put those parts on?

 

[xcntrk]

I know it's sort of a chicken before the egg kind of thing; but most tuners need the vehicle running with no problems and stable operation before they can performance tune. It happens time and time again people book tuning & dyno time and spend half of their session sitting on the dyno chasing reliability issues. But it's frustrating because on the other hand, you likely can't get proper injector scaling to handle your idle issues without tuning. So I would be prepared for a couple sessions of tuning given your custom motor build up. Maybe one session to get all the fueling dialed in, then another session for performance... worst case at least.

 

[craigaria]

I'd get the adjustable regulator, but no need for the rails or new distributor. I always tuned my efi with fuel pressure and timing and a wide band.

dyno shops will offer two types of tuning.

Fuel pressure/timing. They will monitor A/F with their equipment and tune accordingly. This is a cheaper session that works good to maximize power and verify safe operation. You can do the same thing if you buy your own wideband. You will need an adjustable regulator for this

Chip and computer reprogram. Full tune, more expensive and you have to buy the chip also. They can change all parameters including mass air meter and fuel/ timing.

Since they didn't suggest you buying a chip, they may be doing the cheaper tune. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want. The computer tune will usually solve any drivability issues like surging and squeeze out the last few horses

Just wanted to add that it sounds like it may be running lean. But no way to no without checking A/F. My last mustang had the same symptoms. I thought it was rich but once I installed the wideband I was dangerously lean. Cranked up the fuel pressure and it ran like a champ with perfect A/F at WOT

After many Dyno sessions, I found it is cheaper to buy a wide band and tune yourself. After it is tuned you will still be able to monitor the a/f and catch a problem before you damage the engine. If you tune it yourself and it still has drive ability issues, then spend the cash for the Dyno tune with a chip

 

[Broncobowsher]

With as much as has been changed on that engine, a custom chip would be the better way to go. It is no longer just a minor tweak, everything related to the specific tune has changed. Displacment, head flow, injector size, MAF calibration, I am sure cam as well. If they are trying to tune all that with just fuel pressure and playing with base timing you are wasting your time and money.

The last stroker I built (all the same basic changes like you did) I talked to the local tuner and they burned me a chip on my specs that was rough, but would keep it running enough to fix the water leaks and get me through a couple thermal cycles to settle the engine down. Idle was set a bit high so it wouldn't stall, things like that. Then I could drive it in after getting the basics fixed and get it dialed in right. No way that engine could be shade tree tuned with fuel pressure alone to get the fuel curve right.

 

[xcntrk]

Out of curiosity how to does one tune the Mustang computers? Are they a firmware reflash, or do you buy a piggy back ecu that modifies the stock ecu signaling? Is there any open source software to manipulate the Mustang ecu's?

 

[craigaria]

With as much as has been changed on that engine, a custom chip would be the better way to go. It is no longer just a minor tweak, everything related to the specific tune has changed. Displacment, head flow, injector size, MAF calibration, I am sure cam as well. If they are trying to tune all that with just fuel pressure and playing with base timing you are wasting your time and money.

The last stroker I built (all the same basic changes like you did) I talked to the local tuner and they burned me a chip on my specs that was rough, but would keep it running enough to fix the water leaks and get me through a couple thermal cycles to settle the engine down. Idle was set a bit high so it wouldn't stall, things like that. Then I could drive it in after getting the basics fixed and get it dialed in right. No way that engine could be shade tree tuned with fuel pressure alone to get the fuel curve right.

I am no expert by any means but both my cars had built heads, cam, intake, injectors, meters, injectors, ignition, compression, supercharger, etc and were still able to be tuned with fuel pressure and timing.

On my first efi mustang, A/F, fuel pressure, timing was a Dyno tune. There were no other options . Tons of people were running very built motors with stock efi. That is the good thing about mass air. You can do lots of mods and it will still works.

On my first car, I went to the Dyno quite a bit. I had pump gas tune, race gas tune, high boost, street boost, etc. all was tuned with A/F tuning with fuel pressure and timing. I was able to see how easy it was to tune.

Wide band is pretty standard tuning now. The serious racers prefer to Dyno tune and squeeze every last horse out of the combo. Also, people with drive ability issues computer tune to make their race cars more street friendly.

Not trying to argue, just my experience, and my cars made strong, safe, drivable power with air fuel tuning

 

[xcntrk]

I am no expert by any means but both my cars had built heads, cam, intake, injectors, meters, injectors, ignition, compression, supercharger, etc and were still able to be tuned with fuel pressure and timing.

On my first efi mustang, A/F, fuel pressure, timing was a Dyno tune. There were no other options . Tons of people were running very built motors with stock efi. That is the good thing about mass air. You can do lots of mods and it will still works.

On my first car, I went to the Dyno quite a bit. I had pump gas tune, race gas tune, high boost, street boost, etc. all was tuned with A/F tuning with fuel pressure and timing. I was able to see how easy it was to tune.

Wide band is pretty standard tuning now. The serious racers prefer to Dyno tune and squeeze every last horse out of the combo. Also, people with drive ability issues computer tune to make their race cars more street friendly.

Not trying to argue, just my experience, and my cars made strong, safe, drivable power with air fuel tuning

So what this is nothing more then just manipulating the fuel pressure and timing advance while using the stock EFI tune on your mustang computer?

Help me through the logic on how this works exactly. Stock ignition advance for EFI is what 10 degrees base timing right and stock pressure 36-40lbs? So your dial that in and monitor your W/B AFR looking for stable idle ratio (around 14.7?). Then during WOT gear pulls your modifying both timing and fuel pressure (increase) in an attempt to reach your target AFR of ??? (10:1 ~ 11:1)? Won't the computer relearn the increase in fuel pressure and re-scale the injector duty cycle back down to whatever its pre-programmed AFR targets are? I guess this is why I'm not following this fuel tuning outside of the computer.

 

[BroncoinAlaska]

The tune would be a complete chip tune. The shop would supply the chip and should work on both my A9P computers. As for replacing the distributor, their reasoning is that it is the last original wearable components that I pulled out of the mustang.
The Bronco runs well enough to drive around and make a couple heat cycles to track down leaks and check for codes. I would say that it is running rich now, if the garage door is not all the way open the exhaust will burn your eyes.

 

[craigaria]

So what this is nothing more then just manipulating the fuel pressure and timing advance while using the stock EFI tune on your mustang computer?

Help me through the logic on how this works exactly. Stock ignition advance for EFI is what 10 degrees base timing right and stock pressure 36-40lbs? So your dial that in and monitor your W/B AFR looking for stable idle ratio (around 14.7?). Then during WOT gear pulls your modifying both timing and fuel pressure (increase) in an attempt to reach your target AFR of ??? (10:1 ~ 11:1)? Won't the computer relearn the increase in fuel pressure and re-scale the injector duty cycle back down to whatever its pre-programmed AFR targets are? I guess this is why I'm not following this fuel tuning outside of the computer.

Base timing of 10 degrees with a supercharger is safe. You can go higher with a naturally aspirated motor. If you hear spark knock, back off the timing.

Make sure your timing is safe then Monitor the air fuel during a wide open pull. If it is going lean do not stay on the throttle, let off and add fuel pressure and try again. For a supercharger you want 11.6-11.7 a/f for a safe tune. Naturally aspirated can go a little leaner.

The computer will adjust the rest. Idle a/f will be inconsistent, but cruising you should see around 14.5-15.5. But that will vary too based on load or throttle.

If you cannot get to safe a/f , you have a fuel delivery issue or too small injectors. If you are extremely rich, you are over fueling with fuel pressure or oversized injectors.

Simple and it works.

A computer chip tune is far better and I wasn't trying to bash it. Some mass air meters cause issues that only a computer tune can correct. You get max power, drivability, and you get a sheet showing how much power you made. But once you leave the Dyno, you have no way of monitoring your air fuel. If your fuel pump starts getting weak, you will be driving around lean and may cause damage.

 

[craigaria]

I would say that it is running rich now, if the garage door is not all the way open the exhaust will burn your eyes.

My last mustang was the same way. I thought it was rich, it stunk and burned your eyes bad. It felt very weak and was sputtering and popping through the intake.

Installed the wideband and it was dangerously lean. I can't believe I didn't pop a head gasket or worse

 

[BroncoinAlaska]

My last mustang was the same way. I thought it was rich, it stunk and burned your eyes bad. It felt very weak and was sputtering and popping through the intake.

Installed the wideband and it was dangerously lean. I can't believe I didn't pop a head gasket or worse

You have me interested in your wide band. Setup. Do you have pictures and a discription of the setup?

 

[KyleQ]

Messing with the FPR and timing is UTTER BULLSHIT for a tune - run form any shop that wants to trick your hard earned dollars into making it run correctly in that way.

A proper tune with a chip is the only way to go, you do realize that the ECU adjusts fuel pressure, timing, spark, injector pulse width and all sorts of environmentally inputted variables?

Do not waste your money on a new distro, fuel rails or a FPR - there is a proper way to tune and then there is tricking the computer. For me, maybe that would be fine on something that I don't have a lot of money or effort into, but the build list you have there has you thousands of dollars into this and to cheap out on the single most important part would be lunacy.

You get max power, drivability, and you get a sheet showing how much power you made. But once you leave the Dyno, you have no way of monitoring your air fuel. If your fuel pump starts getting weak, you will be driving around lean and may cause damage.

With that mentality you are basically saying it isn't safe to run ANY fuel injected vehicle without a AF gauge... If you are worried about a weak fuel pump killing your motor (which isn't all that tough to realize what is happening) simply put a nice little diagnostic thingy under the hood. You know, a fuel pressure gauge...

 

[craigaria]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVM-30-4100/

Very easy to install, but you will have to weld an o2 bung into your exhaust. Other than that, it is plug and play.

To the op, I'm sure that you are going to be happy with your tune. I wasn't trying to say you were doing it wrong. A chip tune is the most accurate tune you can get.

I was going to take my last car in for a chip tune, but after a tuner suggested the wideband, I tried it and it worked great...

 

[craigaria]

Messing with the FPR and timing is UTTER BULLSHIT for a tune - run form any shop that wants to trick your hard earned dollars into making it run correctly in that way.

A proper tune with a chip is the only way to go, you do realize that the ECU adjusts fuel pressure, timing, spark, injector pulse width and all sorts of environmentally inputted variables?

Do not waste your money on a new distro, fuel rails or a FPR - there is a proper way to tune and then there is tricking the computer. For me, maybe that would be fine on something that I don't have a lot of money or effort into, but the build list you have there has you thousands of dollars into this and to cheap out on the single most important part would be lunacy.



With that mentality you are basically saying it isn't safe to run ANY fuel injected vehicle without a AF gauge... If you are worried about a weak fuel pump killing your motor (which isn't all that tough to realize what is happening) simply put a nice little diagnostic thingy under the hood. You know, a fuel pressure gauge...

Wow, guess I'm the bad guy here...

Chip tuning has not been around forever. Many modded engines managed to run cleanly this way in the past. People still use air fuel gauges to tune engines today. I am not the only one... A fuel pressure gauge under the hood is no good. You can't see it while driving.

I guess I came across as arguing. I'm sorry, I was just explaining after broncobowsher called it "shade tree" mechanics. Old school may be more like it. To me it is cheaper and it works

 

[KyleQ]

I'll agree it works - I guess I'll leave it at that. A/F gauges are commonly found in forced induction applications and should be used for tuning - they are great for diagnostic work as well, not disagreeing there. Jacking up the fuel pressure and advancing the timing on a fuel injected motor though... another story. That is fine and dandy on a TBI or any other "stupid" setup, but the Ford EFI computers are much more involved.

It will run, probably good too - maybe it's just all of the racing activity in this area (race 3 months, spend the remainder building) that has given ma a jaded option of that. I would do it on a junkyard 302 with a Eaton M90 sitting on it, but not a fully build stroker where a tune would cost less than 5% of the total build cost.

 

[craigaria]

I'll agree it works - I guess I'll leave it at that. A/F gauges are commonly found in forced induction applications and should be used for tuning - they are great for diagnostic work as well, not disagreeing there. Jacking up the fuel pressure and advancing the timing on a fuel injected motor though... another story. That is fine and dandy on a TBI or any other "stupid" setup, but the Ford EFI computers are much more involved.

It will run, probably good too - maybe it's just all of the racing activity in this area (race 3 months, spend the remainder building) that has given ma a jaded option of that. I would do it on a junkyard 302 with a Eaton M90 sitting on it, but not a fully build stroker where a tune would cost less than 5% of the total build cost.

Like I said, I'm no expert. I just have confidence in it and it works great. I have not damaged my engines tuning this way. They ran pretty good too. Although constantly monitoring an af gauge is not necessary, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy knowing that my tune is safe at all times. Especially on a motor that I spent my hard earned money on

 

[Ranchtruck]

Adjusting fuel pressure and changing the distributor base timing are not tuning methods anyone should be paying for.

The computers are completely open with a chip these days, a tuner can remap everything in it so it works as well as an aftermarket stand alone ECU. That makes for a properly tuned engine, and is what you should get if you pay for dyno time and a professional tuner.

 

[Godwick]

Good thread.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I see both points , but what we are missing .....
as Craigaria was trying to point out to begin with ...

this shop may just be doing an old school tune on this multi-thousand dollar 347 ! OP needs to research that , ASAP !


Now , I "get" Craigs thought process , I'm having a 347 machined out right now and I really like the idea of seeing what the A/F is doing right off the bat so that I don't lean it out and burn something up before I can get a proper tune done.
At least I know that I'm not burning it up while I'm trying to break it in , somewhat similar to Bowshers "break in" period before his proper tune.